About merchant ship wartime colours

[Aktungbby]

/\ NICE! A convoy commander's eyewitness sketches are also primary source material! though I'd marvel at the time taken to do thse meticulous renditions by a convoy commodore in his quarters.??!...perhaps better spent keeping an eye out for Endraß & Co.(notorious Wolfpack West) periscopes etc.. especially in "June 1941 outbound from Liverpool" Edit: JEEZE! I just recollected my own Primary Source Material from a day of sailing off Mare Island at the confluence of the Sacrarmento River and Napa River at SF Bay's northernmost San Pablo Bay in 2018. I glimpsed an actual Victory Cargo ship moored at the Merchant Marine Academy for refitting maintenance to engines and hastily nailed it with my flipphone to starboard while on a westerly tack: It is the Red Oak Victory; usually moored at the Richmond Museum near Oakland. Here's a video replete with Ocean Gray 5-0 paint being moored at the academy; probably the day I saw it!

[gap]

Originally Posted by U-190

https://www.historylearningsite.co.u...le-of-britain/

Oh, okay, I had misunderstood you. That happened before the USA joined the Allied side. American pilots fought as volunteers though, so I suppose they were operating RAF aircraft.
What about ships? You had mentioned something about US vessels wearing British ensigns. I know that a number of US destroyers were involved in the so called "Neutrality Patrols", which actually were a covert way for the USA to defend their own coasts and Allied shipping against the U-baot menace even before December '41, but I believe those warships to have sailed under US flag.

Originally Posted by U-190

Here is another table of colors for painting Boats. I use this color scheme to create skins.

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

Well you "need not submit a report of its destruction as it is now 'unclassified''... I simply had googled 'WWII naval camouflage paint'; and there it was-all in one manual??!!...in history research this is: "primary source material" if ever! I only displayed the two Thayer System diagrams color schemes XI &XII plates as they were the only two merchant classification vessels shown in the manual as per your OP; after which, I romped further afield on the Jeremiah O'Brian(same source as Mr._M)and USS Allegan AK-225's unique paint schemes.

You did an excellet job bby, your degree in history is paying back the college fees

Originally Posted by iambecomelife

In re: cargo ship colors, here's a very useful series of color sketches by a convoy commodore during the war. Apparently some ships did indeed keep the black hull paint for a long time after war broke out...also, tankers were often painted with tan superstructure and funnel for some reason.

WOW, I was hoping for some more color photographs but those hand drawings are actually better!

I wish we could have access to the full series. Ah btw I have found the name of the talented Commodore, he was the Rear Admiral Hugh Hext Rogers. Here is some background:

https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/...onvoy-drawings

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

/\ NICE! A convoy commander's eyewitness sketches are also primary source material! though I'd marvel at the time taken to do thse meticulous renditions by a convoy commodore in his quarters.??!...perhaps better spent keeping an eye out for Silent Otto & Co.periscopes etc.. especially in "June 1941 outbound from Liverpool"

Are you insinuating that our "primary source" wasn't aggressive enough lol?

[kapuhy]

Stumbled upon this thread covering the same topic as well:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=152218

Some interesting information from there:
- Early war British regulations were supposedly different:
"black hulls and funnels, with brown or dark buff superstructure, masts and derricks"
vs later in the war:
"dark grey hull and funnel, with brown or dark buff as above"
and by 1943:
"By 1943 Allied shipping was pretty standardised on all over grey. However the exact shade could vary depending on what was available. Where possible many still used dark grey hull and lighter upper works."

- availability of specific paints was a problem especially if ships were spread over many ports, so it wouldn't be unusual to have convoy consist of varied paint schemes. Still, general rule was to paint everything in dull colours.

-on varnished wood:
"many of the older ships had varnished brown derricks and masts, and this was often retained as the dull colour was considered sufficient"

- decks and upper surfaces were painted in dullest possible colours by ships approaching European waters, because of widespread fear of being bombed by Condor aircraft. This was done outside of regulations, often at sea with any paints on hand so shades would vary depending on what paints were available.

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

"the exact shade could vary depending on what was available"

Originally Posted by kapuhy

"availability of specific paints was a problem especially if ships were spread over many ports, so it wouldn't be unusual to have convoy consist of varied paint schemes."

Originally Posted by http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=152218

"Another reason was of course the availability of paint. Standard schemes were difficult to introduce among ships serving all over the world. Some ports would have sufficient available, other ports would not. Some ports may not have the exact paint needed, so something 'near enough' would have to do."

This confirms my idea that, in war time, it was not so easy to find the exact paint color as required by "official" rules... :

Originally Posted by Mister_M

In real life, I don't know how much time it was needed to repaint a whole ship. Maybe lack of time ? Lack of crew ? Lack of equipment (in wartime, all is restrained) ? Lack of... money (and you will have to repaint again the ship after the war) ?... Or even other things that we just cannot have an idea or we just cannot imagine...

Originally Posted by kapuhy

"general rule was to paint everything in dull colours."

Originally Posted by kapuhy

"on varnished wood: ... the dull colour was considered sufficient"

Originally Posted by kapuhy

"decks and upper surfaces were painted in dullest possible colours"

I'm not a native english speaker, and I can't understand very well what does the key word "dull" mean (even with WordReference.com). Does it mean "dark" ?

So in fact, "dull" paint was better than "light grey" ? ... This would be logical, since dark paint will render your ship less noticeable from the air and during night times.

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by Mister_M

I'm not a native english speaker, and I can't understand very well what does the key word "dull" mean (even with WordReference.com). Does it mean "dark" ?

So in fact, "dull" paint was better than "light grey" ? ... This would be logical, since dark paint will render your ship less noticeable from the air and during night times.

Also not a native speaker but afaik "dull" means low saturation, or an opposite of bright. So, any color as long as it's not bright and saturated, with shades of gray being dullest by definition.

Hence why (unfortunately for someone wishing his ship models to look cool) "dull" also means "boring" :-)

[U-190]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Also not a native speaker but afaik "dull" means low saturation, or an opposite of bright. So, any color as long as it's not bright and saturated, with shades of gray being dullest by definition.

Hence why (unfortunately for someone wishing his ship models to look cool) "dull" also means "boring" :-)

Ogólnie rzecz biorąc, wszystko jest złe! Da Kapuhy?
I think. that I should try to draw something for ships using a color table courtesy of our amigos.

[gap]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Stumbled upon this thread covering the same topic as well:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=152218

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Some interesting information from there:
- Early war British regulations were supposedly different:
"black hulls and funnels, with brown or dark buff superstructure, masts and derricks"
vs later in the war:
"dark grey hull and funnel, with brown or dark buff as above"

This transition must have happened around mid 1941, since one of the sketches posted by iambecomelife, relative to Convoy OB.330 (June 1941), depicts ships painted with either of the two schemes in more or less equal proportions. Judging by the same drawing, grey hulls with buff upper works and funnels was another possible scheme:

 

Originally Posted by iambecomelife

Another of the convoy sketches posted by iambecomelife is notable too, as it depicts a number of funnels painted in brilliant colours:

 

Originally Posted by iambecomelife

Unfortunately its resolution is rather poor. Notes and captions are not easily discernible, but despite that I managed identifing the convoy as Convoy SL.60 (July 1940). What would be interesting is comparing funnel colors with the company colours of each ship.

Originally Posted by kapuhy

and by 1943:
"By 1943 Allied shipping was pretty standardised on all over grey. However the exact shade could vary depending on what was available. Where possible many still used dark grey hull and lighter upper works."

This is more or less the standard colour scheme adopted in stock game, though I don't remember superstructures to be painted in a lighter shade of gray than hulls.

By the way: did you manage solving the problem of LOD models not matching the color of main models (i.e. configurable textures not applying to them)?

Has anyone checked if two ships sharing the same 3D model can be rendered at the same time with two different textures if one of them is set as a "proxy clone" with its own texture?

Both issues might be a major obstacle to having more ship color variety in game

[gap]

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Strangely, HMS Phidias is not listed in OB.330 on Arnold Hague database : http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/ob2/index.html

Obviously an oversight since the same database lists Phidias among the losses of Convoy OB.330:

http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/ob/index...ses.htm~obmain

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Sorry for hijacking this thread...

You are on topic Mister_M, OB.330 is one of the convoys "in color" we are discussing, and SS Phidias is among the ships skecthed by Commodore Rogers as part of that convoy

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

It is listed in your site under ship search in OB 94 FEB1940 & OB 170 Jun 1940. Your Hague site shows 42 vessels in OB 330??!! The commodore only drew 39 vessels !!?? and certainly knew what was in his convoy!: Thus, the Hague data base is not Primary Source material! We'll rely on the Commodore!

Maybe the Hague dtabase includes enscorts in the count?

EDIT: no, I just checked that, it doesn't

Originally Posted by Mister_M

This confirms my idea that, in war time, it was not so easy to find the exact paint color as required by "official" rules... :

In part, yes.

Indeed time factors and paint availability played a big role. Many ships were sunk before they could be repainted, and there was no colour omogenity among the ones which eventually were repainted. You were right on that, but you had also speculated that old ships might have been not worth the extra paint, and this is the point that I and kapuhy disagreed on

Originally Posted by U-190

I think. that I should try to draw something for ships using a color table courtesy of our amigos.

Good idea, but please read my final notes at post #30

[GrenSo]

Here are some - in German - regualations about interiors of ships and submarine.

From the General Regulations No. 31, March 1940 edition, regulation for applying paint to ships and vehicles of the Kriegsmarine D. Paints for submarines: http://www.u-boote-online.de/dieboot...aerz_1940.html

From the General Regulations No. 31, July 1944 edition, regulation for the application of paint on ships and vehicles of the Kriegsmarine D. Paints for submarines: http://www.u-boote-online.de/dieboot...juli_1944.html

[gap]

Originally Posted by GrenSo

Here are some - in German - regualations about interiors of ships and submarine.


From the General Regulations No. 31, March 1940 edition, regulation for applying paint to ships and vehicles of the Kriegsmarine D. Paints for submarines: http://www.u-boote-online.de/dieboot...aerz_1940.html


From the General Regulations No. 31, July 1944 edition, regulation for the application of paint on ships and vehicles of the Kriegsmarine D. Paints for submarines: http://www.u-boote-online.de/dieboot...juli_1944.html

Oh thank you GrenSo, that's another nice contribution, I only wish I knew a bit of German

BTW: do you happen to know if there was any special colour regulation which applied to German merchant ships non-commissioned in the KriegsMarine? I know most of them were either seized in enemy ports, confiscated in neutral ports or blocked in friendly ports, but a number of them saw active service either as coastal shipping or as blockade runners, and I wonder which colours might be more realistic for them.

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

It is listed in your site under ship search in OB 94 FEB1940 & OB 170 Jun 1940. Your Hague site shows 42 vessels in OB 330??!! The commodore only drew 39 vessels !!?? and certainly knew what was in his convoy!: Thus, the Hague data base is not Primary Source material! We'll rely on the Commodore!

PHIDIAS is not in the list and this is obviously an error.

The list has 4 more extra ships (all British) :
- CITY OF BARCELONA
- KING EDWARD
- STANLAKE
- TORTUGUERO

There are also different spellings (drawing/database) :

- BORGHOLM / BORNHOLM
- PRINCESS MARIA PIA / PRINSES MARIA-PIA
- BANGKALIKAT / MANGKALIHAT
- LANGLETARN / LANGLEETARN

Who's right, who's wrong ?

Originally Posted by gap

but you had also speculated that old ships might have been not worth the extra paint, and this is the point that I and kapuhy disagreed on

I'm not sure that new paint would camouflage them better. They are smaller than Liberty ships for example, and they emit black smoke, which instantly nullifies the effect of camouflage (against sea spotters). But it was certainly useful to camouflage them from air spotters, with dull paint on the deck and upper surfaces...

Also :

Originally Posted by http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=152218

"merchant ships were scattered all over the world and of course were far too busy to keep in dock unless completely necessary "

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

By the way: did you manage solving the problem of LOD models not matching the color of main models (i.e. configurable textures not applying to them)?

Has anyone checked if two ships sharing the same 3D model can be rendered at the same time with two different textures if one of them is set as a "proxy clone" with its own texture?

Both issues might be a major obstacle to having more ship color variety in game

Unfortunately, the answer is "no" on both questions.

As for LOD problem, only workarounds for it that I know of are:

1) disable/delete LOD file forcing game to render main model at all distances.
2) set LOD switching distance to far enough and make color variations similar enough that player would not notice color switch at LOD distance.

As for second question - I did a test with one of my coasters, created a clone and set it to use another texture, then put both ships (original and clone) together in one scene. Both showed up with the same texture set. This might warrant another test though since I did it just once and might simply have made some error in configuration.

[gap]

Originally Posted by Mister_M

There are also different spellings (drawing/database) :

- BORGHOLM / BORNHOLM
- PRINCESS MARIA PIA / PRINSES MARIA-PIA
- BANGKALIKAT / MANGKALIHAT
- LANGLETARN / LANGLEETARN

Who's right, who's wrong ?

That's easy to discover:

https://southampton.spydus.co.uk/cgi...GTRN/WPAC/HOME

Enter ship's name in the search field and check the results. If no record is displayed, the spelling is probably wrong

Originally Posted by Mister_M

I'm not sure that new paint would camouflage them better. They are smaller than Liberty ships for example, and they emit black smoke, which instantly nullifies the effect of camouflage (against sea spotters). But it was certainly useful to camouflage them from air spotters, with dull paint on the deck and upper surfaces...

You may be right or wrong, but I don't think this is the actual point. Whether camouflages were effective or not, they were used, this is a fact, and we are trying to discover which ones were used and when

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Here is my analysis of the commodore's (Hugh Hext Rogers) drawing of convoy OB.330 ships (assuming that colors are accurate)...

Oh, that's a cool analysis, well done!

I am preparing a similar analysis for the other convoy whose sketch we have available (SL.60). I will get it finished tomorrow.

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Unfortunately, the answer is "no" on both questions.

As for LOD problem, only workarounds for it that I know of are:

1) disable/delete LOD file forcing game to render main model at all distances.
2) set LOD switching distance to far enough and make color variations similar enough that player would not notice color switch at LOD distance.

As for second question - I did a test with one of my coasters, created a clone and set it to use another texture, then put both ships (original and clone) together in one scene. Both showed up with the same texture set. This might warrant another test though since I did it just once and might simply have made some error in configuration.

Okay, talking about proxy clones a trick that comes to me mind is placing secondary textures directly in clone's folder rather than in the folder of the main unit. It probably won't work, but it is worth an attempt anyway

[U-190]

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by gap

That's easy to discover:

https://southampton.spydus.co.uk/cgi...GTRN/WPAC/HOME

Enter ship's name in the search field and check the results. If no record is displayed, the spelling is probably wrong

What's that ?