Have Submarine-Launched Anti-Aircraft Missiles Finally Come Of Age?

Onkel Neal · 01-08-20, 09:51 AM

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ly-come-of-age

Let's see a show of hands, do you ever get annoyed by the ASW helos pestering you when you're on an important mission? Who among you enjoys jolting your crew into flank evasive maneuvers when some damn helo drops a homing torpedo right on top of you? Well, who says you have to live with that,

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The idea is that, if the submarine was cornered by an aerial anti-submarine asset, it could pop up to a very shallow depth, extend the anti-aircraft missile system, lock up the target and kill it. Hopefully doing so would give the submarine time to slip away, assuming no other anti-submarine assets were nearby.

@1:33 "that's what you get!"

Of course, this gives away the exact location of the sub upon firing, so it would be a last resort defense weapon. But if you're just a few minutes away from cavitating with evasive maneuvers, it may give the aircrews something to think about....

This alternate method would solve the need to come to PD and launch:

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A more advanced SLAM concept offers better survivability and maneuvering flexibility for the launching submarine, but it’s far more complex than the basic mast-mounted A3SM. This concept utilizes a torpedo-like underwater vehicle fired from the submarine that makes its way to the surface. Once there, it releases its missile—or missiles. Alternatively, no canister or vehicle may be needed at all, and the missile may be able to make its way to the surface and fly out without any assistance at all.

Another version uses the torpedo tube to store a "magazine" of SAMs.

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“Four missiles will be stored in a magazine that fits into a standard 21″ torpedo tube. The missiles are ejected from the magazine into the water, extract their wings and separate quietly from the submarine, where they ignite the rocket and transition to airborne flight, propelled by the weapon’s rocket motor.

So, who wants to bet the US and France already have some capabilities, certainly Russia?

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Tests during the mid 2000s had the AIM-9X fired from a vertical launcher as a proof of concept demonstration. A few years later, an AIM-9X was launched from an actual submarine as part of a series of integration tests. Since then the program seems to have disappeared from public view, but it’s likely development has continued on in the classified world—especially considering that submarine-launched unmanned aircraft have been an operational reality within America’s nuclear submarine fleet for some time.

Skybird · 01-08-20, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

So, who wants to bet the US and France already have some capabilities, certainly Russia?

The boat on the photo is a type 212, and the flag and uniforms are German.

FPSchazly · 01-10-20, 01:15 PM

Probably pretty likely that these exist. I'd be curious to know how targeting would work. I wouldn't think you'd be able to just shoot a missile and hope it finds something. Especially curious would be to know how it deals with the sun (given it's shooting up towards things). I imagine some quick math in the seeker head could deduce that the heat source is not moving relative to the missile and thus "infinitely" far away and unreachable (maybe the really ambitious missiles would think they could hit it lol). I imagine the designers of this kind of system would want to try and cover the "oh sh*t" envelope and allow a missile to lock on from as many launch conditions as possible.

I'd want to know what kind of smoke/launch signature this thing would leave. I think a smoke plume coming from the water could be more damning than an active sonar return. I would think it would be super last resort to use. Ideal for a situation where there's nothing but one or two MPA around, limiting retaliatory possibilities.

Rufus Shinra · 01-10-20, 02:08 PM

Well, better to use such a missile than to surface and try to use a RPG against a chopper. More seriously, I wonder how precisely passive sonar can get a bearing on the incoming chopper to get an IR missile relatively well-aligned to not miss miserably (I don't think you'd like for your very short range missile to start 45° away from its target). I mean, without getting the periscope out, which could possibly be detected by the ASW chopper and indicate imminent launch.

Blackcloud · 01-12-20, 07:28 AM

I would have thought the mast mounted system would be best for IR guided missiles and due to the short range of these missiles the smoke trail would not give a helo much time to react.
I thought years ago that a Soviet Kilo was seen with a strange box on a mast and people thought this could have been a SA7 attachment.
Oh I played the original "Red Storm Rising" subsim on my Commodore 64 and that had mast mounted stingers on the USS Seawolf class.

Aktungbby · 01-12-20, 06:10 PM

blackcloud!

ET2SN · 01-12-20, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackcloud

I would have thought the mast mounted system would be best for IR guided missiles and due to the short range of these missiles the smoke trail would not give a helo much time to react.
I thought years ago that a Soviet Kilo was seen with a strange box on a mast and people thought this could have been a SA7 attachment.
Oh I played the original "Red Storm Rising" subsim on my Commodore 64 and that had mast mounted stingers on the USS Seawolf class.

Its tough to do maint. on a sail mounted system when you're at 200 feet.

Or, when you're on the surface and putting along.

Keep in mind those missiles and the wiring to control them would be exposed to an under water environment for months or even years at a time. Launching them out of the tubes makes a lot more sense.

Onkel Neal · 01-13-20, 09:37 AM

Yeah, agreed. Coming from a non-submariner viewpoint, it seems like the tech should exist for a "torpedo" that could be launched, which would go a couple of miles and surface, then launch SAMs.

meetnick · 01-23-20, 10:54 PM

If it is not possible to get surface to air missiles to shoot down enemy choppers, perhaps they could make a type XXI sub with anti air guns mod to put into the game so as to have a shoot out with the chopper??? It would be challenging but how to get the game to record damage to the chopper is the key. Anyways with out dated technology such as a WWII submarine that alone would be interesting to play. The sub could have sonar absorbent rubber coating, snorkel, anti air guns, be maneuverable (out flank/dodge torpedoes) having homing torpedoes, sacrificing speed, noisier at higher speeds, having to go to periscope debt to recharge batteries, yet still have missiles launched from the torpedo tubes.

Aktungbby · 01-24-20, 03:52 AM

meetnick!

p7p8 · 01-24-20, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meetnick

Anyways with out dated technology such as a WWII submarine that alone would be interesting to play

Only if you likes to be killed in every game within first 10-15 minutes

Modern sensors allow to detect old submarine from much greater range than Type XXI artillery. No point to come closer for ASW helo.

dashyr · 01-30-20, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPSchazly

Probably pretty likely that these exist. I'd be curious to know how targeting would work. I wouldn't think you'd be able to just shoot a missile and hope it finds something. Especially curious would be to know how it deals with the sun (given it's shooting up towards things). I imagine some quick math in the seeker head could deduce that the heat source is not moving relative to the missile and thus "infinitely" far away and unreachable (maybe the really ambitious missiles would think they could hit it lol). I imagine the designers of this kind of system would want to try and cover the "oh sh*t" envelope and allow a missile to lock on from as many launch conditions as possible.

I'd want to know what kind of smoke/launch signature this thing would leave. I think a smoke plume coming from the water could be more damning than an active sonar return. I would think it would be super last resort to use. Ideal for a situation where there's nothing but one or two MPA around, limiting retaliatory possibilities.

For the targeting. Given how data is exchanged in modern warfare, I wouldn't be surprised if they are used as launch platforms but actually guided using the radar of a fighter. Bit like the US intended to use the F-22 and how the networking with the F-35 seems to be intended to work. A lot of the next gen tech seems to be built with information exchange in mind. A true new age for warfare...

PurpleCow · 03-13-20, 03:44 PM

No actual navy experience here, just fan of Red Storm Rising book. Remembering reading the part of the book where the soviet sub was torpedoed resting near a known wreck near New York harbor. It was like the sub could not do anything other than try remain quiet. A tactic that did not work once the torpedo's active sonar acquired.

Could something be devised that could be shot out from a standard torpedo tube and then exit the casing once surfaced? A missile that could gain altitude and then acquire a target helo that was dipping it's sonar?

I imagine that in order to remain stealthy and not give themselves away the torpedo containing the missile would have to be fired a fair distance away from where it surfaced from the water. Also how to launch a missile from a torpedo that has surfaced? Unlike the Polaris which is well clear of the water before it ignites it's boosters.

KungPao · 03-17-20, 05:07 PM

In the age of datalink/CEC, everything is possible.

Just think about these scenarios,
1, Sub released a UUV, UUV surfaced. Sub fired an AA missile at the safe depth, UUV guide the missile on to the air target.
2, Sub released a UUV, UUV surfaced, UUV fired an AA missile and guided it on to the target.
or something better.
3, Sub released a UUV, UUV establish the link with the satellite. A fighter hundreds of miles away fired a long-range AA missile. UUV provide terminal guidance

pclaurent · 05-18-20, 06:58 AM

The video above describes the A3SM system sold by French DCNS (now Naval Group) to equip Andrasta-type coastal submarines as well as Scorpene type submarines (it is also likely that the new Suffren can be fitted with it). The A3SM system is made up of 3 Mistral class missiles which can reach an aircraft operating at low altitude within a 6.5 km range.

Another version of this system (not seen in the video) uses an underwater vehicle that can be launched like a torpedo and equipped with an infrared-guided Mica missile. It can be launched from periscope depth or deep immersion. It can destroy an aircraft at medium altitude within a 20 km range.

01-10-20, 01:15 PM	#3
FPSchazly Good Hunting! Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Beantown Posts: 776 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 1	Probably pretty likely that these exist. I'd be curious to know how targeting would work. I wouldn't think you'd be able to just shoot a missile and hope it finds something. Especially curious would be to know how it deals with the sun (given it's shooting up towards things). I imagine some quick math in the seeker head could deduce that the heat source is not moving relative to the missile and thus "infinitely" far away and unreachable (maybe the really ambitious missiles would think they could hit it lol). I imagine the designers of this kind of system would want to try and cover the "oh sht" envelope and allow a missile to lock on from as many launch conditions as possible. I'd want to know what kind of smoke/launch signature this thing would leave. I think a smoke plume coming from the water could be more damning than an active sonar return. I would think it would be super last resort to use. Ideal for a situation where there's nothing but one or two MPA around, limiting retaliatory possibilities. __________________ Your friendly neighborhood modern submarine YouTuber. My videos: Exclusive Look at Modern Naval Warfare!* Dangerous Waters Liu Doctrine (LwAmi Learn to play Dangerous Waters

01-10-20, 02:08 PM	#4
Rufus Shinra Soundman Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: The land of the free with a glorious military history (France) Posts: 141 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Well, better to use such a missile than to surface and try to use a RPG against a chopper. More seriously, I wonder how precisely passive sonar can get a bearing on the incoming chopper to get an IR missile relatively well-aligned to not miss miserably (I don't think you'd like for your very short range missile to start 45° away from its target). I mean, without getting the periscope out, which could possibly be detected by the ASW chopper and indicate imminent launch. Last edited by Rufus Shinra; 01-10-20 at 02:30 PM.

01-12-20, 06:10 PM	#6
Aktungbby Gefallen Engel U-666 Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: On a tilted, overheated, overpopulated spinning mudball on Collision course with Andromeda Galaxy Posts: 30,019 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	Welcome aboard! blackcloud! __________________ "Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness?!!

01-13-20, 09:37 AM	#8
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,385 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	Yeah, agreed. Coming from a non-submariner viewpoint, it seems like the tech should exist for a "torpedo" that could be launched, which would go a couple of miles and surface, then launch SAMs. __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

01-23-20, 10:54 PM	#9
meetnick Swabbie Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 13 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	Cold Waters surface to air missiles remedy If it is not possible to get surface to air missiles to shoot down enemy choppers, perhaps they could make a type XXI sub with anti air guns mod to put into the game so as to have a shoot out with the chopper??? It would be challenging but how to get the game to record damage to the chopper is the key. Anyways with out dated technology such as a WWII submarine that alone would be interesting to play. The sub could have sonar absorbent rubber coating, snorkel, anti air guns, be maneuverable (out flank/dodge torpedoes) having homing torpedoes, sacrificing speed, noisier at higher speeds, having to go to periscope debt to recharge batteries, yet still have missiles launched from the torpedo tubes. Last edited by meetnick; 01-23-20 at 11:06 PM.

01-12-20, 07:28 AM	#5
Blackcloud Bilge Rat Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 1 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I would have thought the mast mounted system would be best for IR guided missiles and due to the short range of these missiles the smoke trail would not give a helo much time to react. I thought years ago that a Soviet Kilo was seen with a strange box on a mast and people thought this could have been a SA7 attachment. Oh I played the original "Red Storm Rising" subsim on my Commodore 64 and that had mast mounted stingers on the USS Seawolf class.

01-24-20, 03:52 AM	#10
Aktungbby Gefallen Engel U-666 Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: On a tilted, overheated, overpopulated spinning mudball on Collision course with Andromeda Galaxy Posts: 30,019 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	welcome aboard! meetnick! __________________ "Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness?!!

03-13-20, 03:44 PM	#13
PurpleCow A-ganger Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 75 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	No actual navy experience here, just fan of Red Storm Rising book. Remembering reading the part of the book where the soviet sub was torpedoed resting near a known wreck near New York harbor. It was like the sub could not do anything other than try remain quiet. A tactic that did not work once the torpedo's active sonar acquired. Could something be devised that could be shot out from a standard torpedo tube and then exit the casing once surfaced? A missile that could gain altitude and then acquire a target helo that was dipping it's sonar? I imagine that in order to remain stealthy and not give themselves away the torpedo containing the missile would have to be fired a fair distance away from where it surfaced from the water. Also how to launch a missile from a torpedo that has surfaced? Unlike the Polaris which is well clear of the water before it ignites it's boosters.

03-17-20, 05:07 PM	#14
KungPao Seaman Join Date: Nov 2019 Location: Type 091's engine room Posts: 40 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 0	In the age of datalink/CEC, everything is possible. Just think about these scenarios, 1, Sub released a UUV, UUV surfaced. Sub fired an AA missile at the safe depth, UUV guide the missile on to the air target. 2, Sub released a UUV, UUV surfaced, UUV fired an AA missile and guided it on to the target. or something better. 3, Sub released a UUV, UUV establish the link with the satellite. A fighter hundreds of miles away fired a long-range AA missile. UUV provide terminal guidance

05-18-20, 06:58 AM	#15
pclaurent Nub Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 4 Downloads: 39 Uploads: 0	A3SM The video above describes the A3SM system sold by French DCNS (now Naval Group) to equip Andrasta-type coastal submarines as well as Scorpene type submarines (it is also likely that the new Suffren can be fitted with it). The A3SM system is made up of 3 Mistral class missiles which can reach an aircraft operating at low altitude within a 6.5 km range. Another version of this system (not seen in the video) uses an underwater vehicle that can be launched like a torpedo and equipped with an infrared-guided Mica missile. It can be launched from periscope depth or deep immersion. It can destroy an aircraft at medium altitude within a 20 km range.