UK Politics Thread - Page 614

Jimbuna · 02-20-19, 06:59 AM

Quote:

THE fledgling party started by breakaway Labour MPs has suffered a financial blow, after it emerged it will not be eligible for public money given to other opposition parties.

The Independent Group, which hopes to evolve into a new party within months, had been expected to qualify for hundreds of thousands of pounds in ‘short money’.

However the House of Commons has confirmed that short money is not available “to a new political party, if it was established in the middle of parliament”.

It means the new party would need to fight and win seats at a general election to qualify.https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...oup/?ref=fbshr

I wonder if this was thought through, especially with no current evidence of a financial backer.

MGR1 · 02-20-19, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Could be the beginning of a three main party system. They already number one more than the Liberals.

Technically there are already three main parties, at least by number of MPs. It's just that the third largest party only represents one segment of one area of the UK.

Mike.

Catfish · 02-20-19, 10:27 AM

^

Well that's what we in Europe think as well, but obviously not England.

So.. how about a unification of the Irelands?

Jimbuna · 02-20-19, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MGR1

Technically there are already three main parties, at least by number of MPs. It's just that the third largest party only represents one segment of one area of the UK.

Mike.

Fair point

Jimbuna · 02-20-19, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

So.. how about a unification of the Irelands?

Normally I wouldn't have a concern with that but such a move would quickly escalate into Welsh and Scottish independence calls which would bring about a break-up of the Union.

Skybird · 02-20-19, 11:32 AM

A blow to the English ego, I admit, but if the people in wales and Scotland voluntarily and by themselves say they do not want to be together with Englandn anymore, then that is their most natural right that no body can deny them.

I only insit that they pay for their independenace themselves, not us. To call themselves independent while dpeending on us to pay their bills would be more than I tolerate. Its too bad that the whole EU today is about right this: people not beig linked and affected to each other beig forced to pay each other's bills.

The company of thieves and daggers. Most even want to be in this business, the others get forced by the majoirty to not escape from it.

MGR1 · 02-20-19, 05:59 PM

The catch with the independence game is economics.

Put bluntly, Northern Ireland can only exist as part of the UK, or as part of the Republic of Ireland.

Similarly Wales can only be part of the UK, or be re-integrated into England as it was prior to the late 1960's.

Neither can function as independent entities.

Scotland can function as an independent state, theoretically, but the shock of independence would cause severe economic damage in the short term with a very long term recovery. At the moment a majority of Scots aren't too keen on making that leap of faith. We Scots do seem to be remarkably fond of money if we want to painfully honest with ourselves.

Only England can function by itself relatively painlessly as it's the only net-contributer in the UK, the other three parts are subsidised to greater or lesser degree.

Ultimately the United Kingdom doesn't make sense for England if you look at it in pure economic terms BUT from the stand point of military defence then it becomes much more understandable.

If we take a look at the strategic position that England found itself in prior to 1707, it was at war France and had very poor relations with Scotland, a traditional French ally it shared a land border with. Therefore the Act of Union was a marriage of convenience - it allowed Scotland (more specifically it's ruling elite) to recoup it's losses after the failure of the Darien scheme. It allowed England to concentrate it's attention against France without having to glance nervously over it's shoulder to the north in case Louis XIV tried to use Scotland as a base to open a second front.

That's a gross simplification, but that's the basic essence.

If Scotland became independent and affiliated itself with the EU whilst Northern Ireland rejoined the Republic, an EU state, England (or England and Wales) would find itself surrounded by EU territory on all sides. Fanciful perhaps, but entirely possible.

My own complaint about how Scotland is governed within the UK does come down to economics - the Scottish branches of the main UK parties appear have no interest in allowing Scotland to become a net-contributer to the UK exchequer.

It would severely damage the "Scotland Strong in UK" message if Scotland could become self-supporting in the same way as England is and would give further impetous to the SNP's pro-independence message. For the UK Government allowing Scotland to have the necessary economic levers to improve it's economy would have a disruptive effect on the internal UK market and economy.

Neither appear to be willing to run the risk, unfortunately. A Scotland that was a consistant net-contributer to the UK would be much happier within it, I suspect.

Mike.

Jimbuna · 02-21-19, 06:37 AM

^ Good and informative post Mike

Jimbuna · 02-21-19, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Labour and the Conservatives could face more resignations, with members of the new Independent Group saying they expect more MPs to join them.

Ex-Tory MP Heidi Allen told ITV's Peston programme "a third" of Tory MPs were fed up with the party's direction.

Tory MP Justine Greening said she would quit her party if it allowed a no-deal Brexit, while Labour's Ian Austin said he was considering his position.

MPs from the new group say they stand for "the centre ground of politics".https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47313366

Looks like matters could soon be gathering pace.

Skybird · 02-21-19, 06:56 AM

It seems we agree, Mike, that independence is about being able and economically strong enough to be economically/financially strong (=autark) indeed. I described a general principle, you added the individual background of the Welsh, Irish and Scottish cases.

I'm fine with whatever they decide, voluntarily and without being pressed from outside. I just insist on that whatever it is - they must be able to afford it by their own means. Same I tell the Basques. The Catalonians, The Walonians. Or, fictionally, if they would have a referendum, the Bavarians in Germany. Everybody is free to deny being ruled by foreign people. But nobody has the right to demand that others have to pay for his living. Everybody has to prepare his living so that he can bear his own weight. Desires for more are just motivations for doing the work on the way form here to there all by oneself. They do not give you claim over others who should give you a free ride.

So much for the theory. Reality already is a labyrinthic mess. And thats why the EU is a mess as well. Its the architect of this labyrinth.

MGR1 · 02-21-19, 12:35 PM

Your last point is not untrue it has to be said. Or written, as the case maybe!

One point about Scotland that does seem to be consistently missed by it's detractors in England is that at one time it was a net-contributer to the UK's finances. During the period of what's termed the "Industrial Expansion", the mid 19th Century until roughly the 1920's to 30's, Scotland consistantly sent more money south than it received back in spending.

Even taking into account the tax revenue generated by North Sea Oil, during the post WW2 period Scotland has been a net-receiver more often that not. Even with past oil revenues factored in it's barely been break-even at best.

In order for that to change there would have to be either major investment by the UK Government (which prior to devolution only did "just enough" rather than trying to fix things once and for all) or Holyrood is handed the means to improve Scotland's economic outlook for itself. However, as I wrote before, that would upset the UK economy as one region would gain a competitive advantage over the rest.

How to square that circle, I have no idea.

Mike.

STEED · 02-21-19, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Independent Group: Which MPs could be next to defect?

https://news.sky.com/story/independe...efect-11643623

As more days pass by the lesser the chances anymore will join them. Granted the big vote next week could raise the chances but in most part I hold no hopes of a big shake up in that stagnant rotten HoC.

Jimbuna · 02-22-19, 06:23 AM

Ian Austin is now the ninth Labour MP to leave but says he won't be joining the Independent Group.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47330079

Jimbuna · 02-23-19, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Brexit should be delayed if Parliament does not approve a deal in the coming days, three cabinet ministers have warned publicly for the first time.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47336501

It looks like the tide could be turning against PM May.

Georg Lassen · 02-23-19, 08:36 AM

Is Brexit in danger? That is the real objective of the EU, they do want Britain back but with under Franco-German vasallege.

02-20-19, 10:27 AM	#9198
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,776 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	^ Well that's what we in Europe think as well, but obviously not England. So.. how about a unification of the Irelands? __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

02-20-19, 11:32 AM	#9201
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,666 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	A blow to the English ego, I admit, but if the people in wales and Scotland voluntarily and by themselves say they do not want to be together with Englandn anymore, then that is their most natural right that no body can deny them. I only insit that they pay for their independenace themselves, not us. To call themselves independent while dpeending on us to pay their bills would be more than I tolerate. Its too bad that the whole EU today is about right this: people not beig linked and affected to each other beig forced to pay each other's bills. The company of thieves and daggers. Most even want to be in this business, the others get forced by the majoirty to not escape from it. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-20-19, 05:59 PM	#9202
MGR1 Grey Wolf Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Aberdeen, Scotland, United Kingdom Posts: 980 Downloads: 252 Uploads: 0	The catch with the independence game is economics. Put bluntly, Northern Ireland can only exist as part of the UK, or as part of the Republic of Ireland. Similarly Wales can only be part of the UK, or be re-integrated into England as it was prior to the late 1960's. Neither can function as independent entities. Scotland can function as an independent state, theoretically, but the shock of independence would cause severe economic damage in the short term with a very long term recovery. At the moment a majority of Scots aren't too keen on making that leap of faith. We Scots do seem to be remarkably fond of money if we want to painfully honest with ourselves. Only England can function by itself relatively painlessly as it's the only net-contributer in the UK, the other three parts are subsidised to greater or lesser degree. Ultimately the United Kingdom doesn't make sense for England if you look at it in pure economic terms BUT from the stand point of military defence then it becomes much more understandable. If we take a look at the strategic position that England found itself in prior to 1707, it was at war France and had very poor relations with Scotland, a traditional French ally it shared a land border with. Therefore the Act of Union was a marriage of convenience - it allowed Scotland (more specifically it's ruling elite) to recoup it's losses after the failure of the Darien scheme. It allowed England to concentrate it's attention against France without having to glance nervously over it's shoulder to the north in case Louis XIV tried to use Scotland as a base to open a second front. That's a gross simplification, but that's the basic essence. If Scotland became independent and affiliated itself with the EU whilst Northern Ireland rejoined the Republic, an EU state, England (or England and Wales) would find itself surrounded by EU territory on all sides. Fanciful perhaps, but entirely possible. My own complaint about how Scotland is governed within the UK does come down to economics - the Scottish branches of the main UK parties appear have no interest in allowing Scotland to become a net-contributer to the UK exchequer. It would severely damage the "Scotland Strong in UK" message if Scotland could become self-supporting in the same way as England is and would give further impetous to the SNP's pro-independence message. For the UK Government allowing Scotland to have the necessary economic levers to improve it's economy would have a disruptive effect on the internal UK market and economy. Neither appear to be willing to run the risk, unfortunately. A Scotland that was a consistant net-contributer to the UK would be much happier within it, I suspect. Mike. __________________ "I am the battleship Jean Bart. This name originates from a certain 'respected' privateer... Yes? You want to know what privateers are? Hmph, they are pirates that rob openly under the banner of their country." Jean Bart from the mobile game Azur Lane. Last edited by MGR1; 02-20-19 at 06:17 PM.

02-21-19, 06:37 AM	#9203
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,678 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	^ Good and informative post Mike __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

02-21-19, 06:56 AM	#9205
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,666 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	It seems we agree, Mike, that independence is about being able and economically strong enough to be economically/financially strong (=autark) indeed. I described a general principle, you added the individual background of the Welsh, Irish and Scottish cases. I'm fine with whatever they decide, voluntarily and without being pressed from outside. I just insist on that whatever it is - they must be able to afford it by their own means. Same I tell the Basques. The Catalonians, The Walonians. Or, fictionally, if they would have a referendum, the Bavarians in Germany. Everybody is free to deny being ruled by foreign people. But nobody has the right to demand that others have to pay for his living. Everybody has to prepare his living so that he can bear his own weight. Desires for more are just motivations for doing the work on the way form here to there all by oneself. They do not give you claim over others who should give you a free ride. So much for the theory. Reality already is a labyrinthic mess. And thats why the EU is a mess as well. Its the architect of this labyrinth. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-21-19, 12:35 PM	#9206
MGR1 Grey Wolf Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Aberdeen, Scotland, United Kingdom Posts: 980 Downloads: 252 Uploads: 0	Your last point is not untrue it has to be said. Or written, as the case maybe! One point about Scotland that does seem to be consistently missed by it's detractors in England is that at one time it was a net-contributer to the UK's finances. During the period of what's termed the "Industrial Expansion", the mid 19th Century until roughly the 1920's to 30's, Scotland consistantly sent more money south than it received back in spending. Even taking into account the tax revenue generated by North Sea Oil, during the post WW2 period Scotland has been a net-receiver more often that not. Even with past oil revenues factored in it's barely been break-even at best. In order for that to change there would have to be either major investment by the UK Government (which prior to devolution only did "just enough" rather than trying to fix things once and for all) or Holyrood is handed the means to improve Scotland's economic outlook for itself. However, as I wrote before, that would upset the UK economy as one region would gain a competitive advantage over the rest. How to square that circle, I have no idea. Mike. __________________ "I am the battleship Jean Bart. This name originates from a certain 'respected' privateer... Yes? You want to know what privateers are? Hmph, they are pirates that rob openly under the banner of their country." Jean Bart from the mobile game Azur Lane.

02-22-19, 06:23 AM	#9208
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,678 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Ian Austin is now the ninth Labour MP to leave but says he won't be joining the Independent Group. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47330079 __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

02-23-19, 08:36 AM	#9210
Georg Lassen Mate Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Finland Posts: 51 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Is Brexit in danger? That is the real objective of the EU, they do want Britain back but with under Franco-German vasallege.