US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[Buddahaid]

I'm getting nothing. Best post ever....

[em2nought]

Having to spend vast sums on the military is just the price of admission to get Trump, I don't think it's in his personal roundhouse of things wished for. Renegotiating everything that we got super crap deals on in the first place is his forte. If he can stop the mass importation of democrat(socialist) voters he will have been a success. I fear that the prior idiots have let it slip by too long already. Getting us out of foreign entanglements that only cost us big time money and kill Republican voters would be a plus. Trump just needs to pitch border security as the new way for the military industrial complex to bank money. LOL

[Buddahaid]

Don't downplay the task of actually using the weapons systems and knowing how well they work.

[Buddahaid]

And as the government shutdown continues and the stock market slide continues, our fearless leader continues to blame just about anything other than his bombastic, tantrum throwing, helter-skelter leadership. Amazing how it is always somebody else's fault. He sure knows how to put the twit in twitter.

[August]

You mean as opposed to the Lefts opinion that EVERYTHING is Trumps fault from Global Warming to the decline of Western Civilization?

A government shutdown doesn't hurt me one bit and I think the swamp is just scared that the public will see how easily they can get along without them so they cry wolf through their media shills on CNN.

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by August

....they cry wolf through their media shills on CNN.

I guess that makes Trump the shill in chief then.

[August]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

I guess that makes Trump the shill in chief then.

Show me a politician who isn't a shill and I will show you somebody who isn't in politics.

[Buddahaid]

I'll high five that. Merry Christmas.

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by August

Trump is the next generation. You'll remember that it was his predecessor who sent our forces into Syria without Congressional approval. That is supposed to be limited to 90 days. How many years has it been now? He is dealing with the mess by pulling us out before we get more of our people killed.

Yes I have read Matthis' resignation and this is why I agree with the administrations move.

We have no clear military mission in Syria. We originally went into that county to help the rebels fight Assad. We failed in that mission. ISIS is certainly not going to regenerate with Assads forces poised to complete their reconquest of the country. We're not there to fight either the Syrians or the Russians, a possibility which becomes more likely the longer we keep our troops in close proximity with them. Especially such a small force that won't be able to defend themselves.

There has been plenty of hand-wringing on this forum ever since we put troops into Syria and there is even more hand wringing now that we are leaving. People who called us war mongers when we went there now accuse us of abandonment. Well it makes me think that nobody really cares if we are there or not but only complain because it's Trump that wants to do it.

Well yes he is going to do it, and he is also going to pull our people from that 14 year long failed experiment of nation building in Afghanistan too and God bless him for it. We have made no progress in either nation and it's time to cut our losses before we get more of our people killed and maimed. If this is a problem for Germany and the other NATO allies then let them fill the vacuum with their own troops. Maybe it can count in lieu of your unpaid alliance dues.

August, you seem not to realize, that Germany is in Afghanistan only due to the US request and support after 9/11 and not the other way around. I do not know in which world you live but it cannot be the same in which I live. Maybe you should not belive all tweets from the leader, especially when it comes to facts. He is not very good in that...there are no unpaid alliance dues. Maybe just read the NATO treaty and decisions once again.

And y missed my point regarding MiddleEast, although it is partly my fault because I was not precise enough: I have meant the invastion in Iraq with no clear concept. Part of the consequence is the rise of ISIS. This is what I meant with acting responsible and I have exactly the same view as Mattis here...

And Trump is the next generation....so the 70plus generation if for you the new one ?.

Yes but the whole discussion is really meaningless. I guess the US is a young country and has to make the experience with a "dear" leader by itself. The price will be high but humans are learning best by experience....

[August]

Originally Posted by Hawk66

August, you seem not to realize, that Germany is in Afghanistan only due to the US request and support after 9/11 and not the other way around. I do not know in which world you live but it cannot be the same in which I live. Maybe you should not belive all tweets from the leader, especially when it comes to facts. He is not very good in that...there are no unpaid alliance dues. Maybe just read the NATO treaty and decisions once again.

And y missed my point regarding MiddleEast, although it is partly my fault because I was not precise enough: I have meant the invastion in Iraq with no clear concept. Part of the consequence is the rise of ISIS. This is what I meant with acting responsible and I have exactly the same view as Mattis here...

And Trump is the next generation....so the 70plus generation if for you the new one ?.

Yes but the whole discussion is really meaningless. I guess the US is a young country and has to make the experience with a "dear" leader by itself. The price will be high but humans are learning best by experience....

So you want to talk about Afghanistan instead of Syria? OK sure.

Germany is only there because we asked you to come as Skybird and others have repeatedly mentioned here on this forum and Germany has done nothing but complain and criticize our efforts so i'd think that you'd be happy to finally see the end of it.

After all what exactly have we accomplished over there in almost 2 decades of continual conflict? What will we accomplish in three decades or four? We completed original objective long ago and now we are engaged in nation building in probably the worst place in the world to try it and the second we stop it will revert right back to the 14th century (albeit with modern weapons). So how do you feel about Germany fighting in Afghanistan forever?

Oh and please keep the "dear leader" crap to yourself. We are not Germans nor is this post WW1 Europe and unless the Democrats prevail in their efforts to overturn the 2016 election then President Trump will leave office either in 2020 or 2024 and not one day longer.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by August

After all what exactly have we accomplished over there in almost 2 decades of continual conflict? What will we accomplish in three decades or four?

You prevented yourselves, and your allies, from falling victim to another Jihadist attack on the scale of 9/11.

But in the end, I settle on one very simple reason: We go there so that they don’t come here.

It really is that simple. We bring the fight to the enemy so that they don’t bring it to us. There is a common misconception that if we just let them fight their own wars they will leave us alone. This is wildly untrue for two main reasons. First, groups such as the Islamic State will always try to attack the homeland. And second, even if we manage to prevent them from attacking the homeland, we cannot stop the cascade effect of instability and chaos that ensues when the United States leaves a power vacuum.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.75f2dab0658d

To be clear, though, I think it would be great if we could just get out of the Middle East, so I don’t have to worry about my family or friends being the latest KIA. I understand where President Trump is coming from. But just like I listen to my doctor when it comes to health matters, I listen to servicemen and veterans when it comes to military matters. Both General Mattis and Lieutenant Commander Crenshaw have experience in the region, and saw what happened when President Obama withdrew from Iraq, so it’s my opinion that they’re the best people to listen to in this situation.

But hey, maybe they’re wrong. I actually hope they are.

unless the Democrats prevail in their efforts to overturn the 2016 election then President Trump will leave office either in 2020 or 2024 and not one day longer.

Yeah, I think any talk of Trump being a dictator is just alarmist. Say what you want about him, but I haven’t seen any signs of him destroying the democratic political system in America. Calling him a dictator is like saying that all his opponents are communists or something.
——————————————
Also, I have another question for you guys - how divided is America, politically? All I ever hear about is government shutdowns, Nazis running over people in the street, and Antifa harassing people and their families at home. The way the media shows things, you’d think that the left and the right are incapable of co-operation. But frankly, the media isn’t something you can rely on.

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by August

Oh and please keep the "dear leader" crap to yourself. We are not Germans nor is this post WW1 Europe and unless the Democrats prevail in their efforts to overturn the 2016 election then President Trump will leave office either in 2020 or 2024 and not one day longer.

Arrogant as often, August. You know for sure that "Dear leader" was meant sarcastically since some of his supporters actually pay homage to him in an irrational way, which can remind one of the same guy in North Korea.

Yes I know, I am a bad German^^. I pledge guilty what all my ancestors have done in the past and other people will do in the future.
Who has compared Trump to Hitler ?, I am certainly not (else please proof it).

That your country is divided more than ever, that it gets more radicalized than ever (shall I only mention this tweet ****storm concerning the "liberal" supreme court judge and her current struggle with cancer) does not seem to bother you. Also that rights like freedom of the press got challenged this year and were not repulsed by all in a most aggressive, necessary way.

There is no democratic nation immune against anti-democratic tendencies. And it might be new to you there are flavors between democratic and totalitarianism.

There is evidence scientific research about that that no nation is immune against that. I leave it up to you to search for it but I know you will not do so, since you seem not interested in facts or science.

You live in a bubble and see enemies all around you. Be it the liberals in your country or allied nations. All want to destroy or weaken your country. Yes they have their weaknesses (and I talked here more than once that the burden sharing in NATO of my country has to be improved and by the way that is going on currently). But those weaknesses are nothing against the hate and destructiveness the very right wing of the political spectrum in the USA or elsewhere in the West is currently doing. Only the real enemies are benefiting from this...

[August]

Originally Posted by Hawk66

Arrogant as often, August. You know for sure that "Dear leader" was meant sarcastically since some of his supporters actually pay homage to him in an irrational way, which can remind one of the same guy in North Korea.

Yes I know, I am a bad German^^. I pledge guilty what all my ancestors have done in the past and other people will do in the future.
Who has compared Trump to Hitler ?, I am certainly not (else please proof it).

That your country is divided more than ever, that it gets more radicalized than ever (shall I only mention this tweet ****storm concerning the "liberal" supreme court judge and her current struggle with cancer) does not seem to bother you. Also that rights like freedom of the press got challenged this year and were not repulsed by all in a most aggressive, necessary way.

There is no democratic nation immune against anti-democratic tendencies. And it might be new to you there are flavors between democratic and totalitarianism.

There is evidence scientific research about that that no nation is immune against that. I leave it up to you to search for it but I know you will not do so, since you seem not interested in facts or science.

You live in a bubble and see enemies all around you. Be it the liberals in your country or allied nations. All want to destroy or weaken your country. Yes they have their weaknesses (and I talked here more than once that the burden sharing in NATO of my country has to be improved and by the way that is going on currently). But those weaknesses are nothing against the hate and destructiveness the very right wing of the political spectrum in the USA or elsewhere in the West is currently doing. Only the real enemies are benefiting from this...

You claim that you're just being sarcastic but then accuse me of being arrogant for the same thing? Sounds pretty hypocritical no?
As for commenting on German history, well seeing as how I've had family members loose their lives fighting for the Fatherland in both world wars I think I have every right to do so.

[August]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

But just like I listen to my doctor when it comes to health matters, I listen to servicemen and veterans when it comes to military matters.

Wow, I couldn't disagree more Cybermat.

Generals aren't at all like doctors and war is nothing at all like health care. Polar opposites when it comes to effort, motivation and results. A doctor wants to cure his patient or at very least not cause additional harm to him whereas a general wants to destroy his enemy and is quite willing to spend as many of his troops lives as he thinks his civilian masters will let him get away with in order to do it. I have never heard of a General who advocated leaving a war, have you? They're like Pit Bulls whose job it is to keep attacking an enemy until their master pulls back on their leash. There is too little of the surgeon and far too much of the butcher in a general, even a good one to take opinions on geo-politics without a lot of skepticism.

After all should we have listened to Patton when he advocated attacking the Soviets across the ruins of a defeated Germany? Should Truman have allowed MacArthur to turn the Korean conflict into WW3 or his idea that we should loose the rest of our Pacific Fleet in what would almost surely have been a failed effort to relieve the Philippines in early 1942? Or how about Westmorelands idea that Vietnam could be won by fighting a guerilla war like it was the WW2 ETO? They are hardly the only fools we've had wearing stars and like Patton even the good ones have bad ideas. We have a civilian commander in chief for a very good reason.

I find it amazing that people who never had a good thing to say about generals are suddenly willing to take their opinions as gospel, apparently just because it goes against Trump.

Take him out of the discussion and I think that on it's own merits pulling our ground troops out of Syria is a darn good idea. Not only is such the small number of troops we have there ripe for attack by any number of local entities, more importantly their removal significantly reduces the chance of us getting into a shooting war with the Russians and Turks. That was something people used to be worried about. Funny how that's no longer the concern eh?

I also totally reject the idea that we're abandoning our allies. Not including fielding an enormous navy and air force we have ground troops stationed in nearly 100 countries around the world, including neighboring Iraq, and most of them are working in concert with those same allies. I hardly think pulling our ground troops out of this one is the great betrayal that the Presidents political opponents, and some here, are trying to make it out to be.

If ISIS somehow makes a recovery in Syria, which I think is unlikely given the position and number of powers now arrayed against the few remaining survivors and even if they do it will take them a very long time, then we can just as easily send our troops back in and finish them off but until that happens our people aren't going to get caught in the crossfire of a civil war or be handy sitting duck targets for every armed group looking to make the news by killing or capturing an American.

As for Afghanistan, it's been nearly two decades now and little has changed. Sure, we finally got bin Laden and gutted Al Qaeda but like our predecessors in that country our efforts at nation building have been ineffective. The second we pull out of a province the Taliban moves right back in and the national government is run by thieves and incompetents and will collapse faster than South Vietnam Government did once we stop propping them up.

The thing is we can't stay there forever. At some point if we're not going to be successful in our nation building efforts then we are going to have to cut our losses and leave. Is it that time now? I don't claim to know I'm not "Mad Dog" Mattis or the President, but if not now, then when?

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by August

At some point if we're not going to be successful in our nation building efforts then we are going to have to cut our losses and leave. Is it that time now? I don't claim to know I'm not "Mad Dog" Mattis or the President, but if not now, then when?

When we don’t get a repeat of President Obama’s mistakes.

Thanks to President Obama, we already know what happens when America rushes for the exits before finishing off its enemies. When Obama pulled the last U.S. troops out of Iraq in 2011 he insisted that the country had become stable and self-sufficient and that the Iraqi military no longer needed support from U.S. troops in the country.

Obama ignored numerous warnings from American generals and diplomats that the Islamic extremists would return if we left too soon – and Obama turned out to be wrong.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/in-s...aws-of-victory

Now, I agree with a lot of President Trump’s foreign policy, especially his harsh treatment of the Iranian and North Korean regimes, and I think he should keep that up - especially when it comes to the jihadists who have sworn to destroy our western values.