Expermiting with Scope SH4

[Rockin Robbins]

The time to traverse 10 degrees, even with range known, is insufficient information by itself to hit any target except by pure coincidence. Lacking valid methodology, good luck is your only friend.

[gumbeauregard]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

The time to traverse 10 degrees, even with range known, is insufficient information by itself to hit any target except by pure coincidence. Lacking valid methodology, good luck is your only friend.

The only information required for a zero gyro angle firing solution is the target speed and the torpedo speed. You generate a firing bearing from these two numbers.

The arctangent of the (target speed divided by the torpedo speed) generates the deflection required at any range.

Time to transit X degrees is most useful when firing using sound bearing only in SH4 because there is a gap in sound bearings.

As an example, if I have determined target speed to be 10 knots and plan to fire 29 knot electric torpedoes, I know my deflection is 19 degrees. Firing bearing is 19 (Port AOB) or 341(Starboard AOB) for bow torpedoes.

I close to my planned firing range of 1000 yards.

From my prepared table, I know that the target will traverse 10 degrees at 1000 yards in 31 seconds or about 1 degree every 3 seconds.

When I get a clean sound bearing 20 degrees or less from my firing bearing I note the second hand and do the math to the firing bearing. I fire when the time expires.

If my firing bearing is 19 degrees and I get a clean sound bearing of 25 degrees, I time 18 seconds (3 seconds per degree for 6 degrees) and push the fire button)

The limitations of this, of course, are that the target course must be nearly perpendicular to your line of sight for this method to have accuracy but this fits the minute before firing well.

Dick O'Kane refers to his "seaman's eye" referencing one of Tang's misses where he did not update target speed based on what he saw in the periscope, instead relying on the solution developed by plot and the firing party. His experience determining speed by rate of bearing change is "seaman's eye".

Hard to do in the game but not impossible and, of course, shooting from in close forgives speed errors to a large degree.

If your torpedo does not hit precisely where the wire is at firing then you made a speed error somewhere when shooting zero gyro angle.

[yubba]

[gumbeauregard]

Here is a film of my Zero Gyro Angle attack method.



Notes:

If you take positions every three minutes the yards moved divided by 100 =knots of speed for the target. You will see a series of 3 minute positions showing 1000 yards each interval for a target speed of 10 knots.

All bow torpedoes are set to run at 46 knots. The old Mark 14's must be set to high to do this (Tubes 1 through 4) Tubes 5 and 6 have Mark 23's which only have the 46 knot speed setting.

Deflection angle for 10 knot target with 46 knot torpedo can be found on the Wiki chart
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torped...ctionAngle.png

Or you can use this calculator
http://www.couscouscrabcakes.com/okane.html

Or you can make your own table of values in Excel using =DEGREES(ATAN Target Speed/Torpedo Speed)



Notice there is no need to put anything into the TDC with this method.

Once I know the target speed all I do is get to my shooting position, 1000 yards or less from target track and 100 degrees Torpedo track angle (The angle formed by the target track and the torpedo track)

The calculated firing bearing in the film is 12 degrees starboard which is a bearing of 12 degrees. If the target where approaching from submarine port side (Starboard AOB) the firing bearing would be 12 degrees port or 348 degrees.

Range is unnecessary for this method as the ratio of the target speed to torpedo speed remains the same, thus the angle does not change with range to target.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by gumbeauregard

The only information required for a zero gyro angle firing solution is the target speed and the torpedo speed.

That is absolutely false and because you build your entire attack method on this fiction it too is absolute fiction.

Originally Posted by gumbeauregard

You generate a firing bearing from these two numbers.

No, you don't. The rest is irrelevant. Logic, built upon fallacy, is a bigger fallacy.

Please watch my Dick O'Kane video to find out what pieces of information you are missing for a true target solution. And your tables are ridiculous. What's easier than in the heat of the moment, picking the wrong number from a table? Not much. Tables are tossing predictable human error into the targeting process. If you then start multiplying and dividing, introducing more error-prone steps into the targeting process you get many more misses. Build all that upon the fallacy that all you need is target speed and torpedo speed and you have an invalid method crammed with human error.

Why in the world would you use a trig table when you have an analog trig computer on board? It boggles the mind...

There are two possible ways of improving existing targeting methods: Simplifying and making more accurate. Both may be accomplished by mitigating predictable human error. You have complicated the task and made it less accurate by far, guaranteeing many misses.

[gumbeauregard]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

That is absolutely false and because you build your entire attack method on this fiction it too is absolute fiction.
No, you don't. The rest is irrelevant. Logic, built upon fallacy, is a bigger fallacy.

Please watch my Dick O'Kane video to find out what pieces of information you are missing for a true target solution. And your tables are ridiculous. What's easier than in the heat of the moment, picking the wrong number from a table? Not much. Tables are tossing predictable human error into the targeting process. If you then start multiplying and dividing, introducing more error-prone steps into the targeting process you get many more misses. Build all that upon the fallacy that all you need is target speed and torpedo speed and you have an invalid method crammed with human error.

Why in the world would you use a trig table when you have an analog trig computer on board? It boggles the mind...

There are two possible ways of improving existing targeting methods: Simplifying and making more accurate. Both may be accomplished by mitigating predictable human error. You have complicated the task and made it less accurate by far, guaranteeing many misses.

I can't help you if you don't understand the math behind the true zero gyro angle shot.

Right triangles and trig functions are immutable. True Zero Gyro shots only require target speed and torpedo speed.

I watched your video. You are mostly guessing. My video removes your guesswork for a better understanding of Dick O'Kane's Zero Gyro method.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by gumbeauregard

I can't help you if you don't understand the math behind the true zero gyro angle shot.

Okay, pal, conversation over. You're not worth my time. Everybody on this board understands that I have an intimate knowledge of trigonometry and VALID methods of targeting torpedoes with a submarine. Yours is INVALID. Doesn't work. Can't work because you are ignoring crucial elements of the very definition of a target solution.

Much worse than those who can't be helped is those who are so deluded that they WON'T be helped. You're like talking to a flat earther.

Oh, the Dick O'Kane method IS NOT a zero gyro method. It's a close enough to zero gyro not to matter method. There is no guessing in the Dick O'Kane method at all, not even a LITTLE bit. Hundreds have used the Dick O'Kane method to become great shots with manual targeting who failed previously with other methods. Then the Dick O'Kane method, PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD, helps you to understand other valid methods. Yours is not one of those.


THAT's a valid targeting method.


THAT's a valid targeting method. By the way this is a true zero bearing attack method without all your mumbo-jumbo and invalid assumptions. Trig tables need not apply.

Originally Posted by gumbeauregard

The only information required for a zero gyro angle firing solution is the target speed and the torpedo speed. You generate a firing bearing from these two numbers.

Anything built on that statement is a totally invalid targeting method and I advise any new players seeking to learn to ignore anything you've said in this thread.

[gumbeauregard]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Okay, pal, conversation over. You're not worth my time. Everybody on this board understands that I have an intimate knowledge of trigonometry and VALID methods of targeting torpedoes with a submarine. Yours is INVALID. Doesn't work. Can't work because you are ignoring crucial elements of the very definition of a target solution.

Much worse than those who can't be helped is those who are so deluded that they WON'T be helped. You're like talking to a flat earther.

Oh, the Dick O'Kane method IS NOT a zero gyro method. It's a close enough to zero gyro not to matter method. There is no guessing in the Dick O'Kane method at all, not even a LITTLE bit. Hundreds have used the Dick O'Kane method to become great shots with manual targeting who failed previously with other methods. Then the Dick O'Kane method, PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD, helps you to understand other valid methods. Yours is not one of those.


THAT's a valid targeting method.


THAT's a valid targeting method. By the way this is a true zero bearing attack method without all your mumbo-jumbo and invalid assumptions.


Anything built on that statement is a totally invalid targeting method and I advise any new players seeking to learn to ignore anything you've said in this thread.

All that messing with the TDC is totally unnecessary for Bow Tubes.

Your 10 degrees for >15 knots and 20 degrees over 15 knots is an error prone simplification of the trig involved.

You can easily create a very accurate table of firing bearings such as the one I posted and know EXACTLY what bearing to fire on for any target ship speed without ever touching the TDC for bow tube shots in SH4.

It accounts for all the required variables (torp spd, target spd ) and isnt a WAG.

I can post videos all day long demonstrating how accurate and easy it is.

[gumbeauregard]

Since there is disagreement about Zero Gyro Angle shots I thought i would provide some background.

The Submarine Fire Control Manual has a hint to the math involved

BLANK 840. DEFLECTION ANGLE FOR STRAIGHT FIRE:

The deflection angle for a straight shot of any torpedo run for target speeds less than one-half the torpedo speed, may be approximated as follows:

Torpedo
Track Angle 46 Knot Torpedo 29 Knot Torpedo
1. 90 degrees 1 1/4 x Target Speed 2 x Target Speed
2. 60 degrees 75% of (1) 75% of (1)
3. 40 degrees 50% or (1) 50% of (1)
4. 18 degrees 25% of (1) 25% of (1)
5. Optimum 1-1/3 x Target Speed

In my example I use a 10 knot target and 46 knot torpedo. The approximation suggested in the STFCM is 1.25 times the target speed for a 90 degree shot or a 12.25 degree deflection angle.

The Arctangent of 10/46 is 12.26477 degrees.

All of this is based on well known trigonometric functions.

A torpedo shot is a simple time and distance problem.

You choose an impact point on the target course line. You position the boat at a firing position within range of the torpedo. You must fire the torpedo so that it arrives at the impact point when the target is occupying the impact point.

That time is determined by the ratio of the torpedo speed to the target speed.

A 46 knot torpedo travels 4.6 times as far as a 10 knot target for ANY given distance.

For any time (T) the sides for this triangle are 10(T) and 46 (T). Thus we can ignore the T.



So far ANY target range the ratio of target speed to torpedo speed is constant, thus the firing angle is constant for any range.

From the STFCM you can see the rule of thumb applies to any shot within 30 degrees of "Normal" (The course 90 degrees off the target course)

So any time you can get into a firing position that allow a nearly 90 degree torpedo impact to target course the trig table I posted is extremely accurate ASSUMING you develop an accurate target speed and use the correct torpedo speed.

No messing with the TDC is required for Bow tubes in SH4.

[Rockin Robbins]

Anybody can cherry pick irrelevant parts of the Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual. Where does it say that the only two pieces of information you need to shoot a torpedo are target speed and torpedo speed?

Knowing how to read is not the same as having comprehension. Rote copying of material you do not understand does not bolster your case.

From time to time people pop into Subsim with crazy ideas that they are the only people in the history of mankind to come up with a completely new method of shooting torpedoes. They make grandiose statements and outlandish claims, then make themselves appear sane by quoting the 1946 Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual.

Of course it does NOT support your method. Your method is invalid and cannot be used to accurately aim a torpedo. Those guys seventy odd years ago were way ahead of you.

And you don't understand either the vector analysis method or the Dick O'Kane method. I use the accurate analog trig computer built into the TDC to eliminate inevitable human error and PRECISELY pick the gyro angle, which the selection of lead angle by rule of thumb, not guessing, ensures will be well under 10 degrees. Any gyro angle of under 20 degrees is considered straight shooting where range error is not going to result in missing the target. There's nothing magic about fussing with getting a perfect zero gyro angle shot. Read the freakin' manual you so love to quote! A little understanding would lead you to sheepishly withdraw all you've said. Any fool can retype irrelevant passages. You sure have.

Now either support your foundation statement, "the only two pieces of information you need to shoot a torpedo are target speed and torpedo speed." or go away.

There was another equally deluded guy who claimed that putting the enemy on your 80 degree or 280 degree bearing guaranteed his course was at right angles to your own.... He loved to quote the Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual in invalid ways too. Hint: the STFC manual does not depend on Black Magic.

[gumbeauregard]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Anybody can cherry pick irrelevant parts of the Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual. Where does it say that the only two pieces of information you need to shoot a torpedo are target speed and torpedo speed?

Knowing how to read is not the same as having comprehension. Rote copying of material you do not understand does not bolster your case.

From time to time people pop into Subsim with crazy ideas that they are the only people in the history of mankind to come up with a completely new method of shooting torpedoes. They make grandiose statements and outlandish claims, then make themselves appear sane by quoting the 1946 Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual.

Of course it does NOT support your method. Your method is invalid and cannot be used to accurately aim a torpedo. Those guys seventy odd years ago were way ahead of you.

And you don't understand either the vector analysis method or the Dick O'Kane method. I use the accurate analog trig computer built into the TDC to eliminate inevitable human error and PRECISELY pick the gyro angle, which the selection of lead angle by rule of thumb, not guessing, ensures will be well under 10 degrees. Any gyro angle of under 20 degrees is considered straight shooting where range error is not going to result in missing the target. There's nothing magic about fussing with getting a perfect zero gyro angle shot. Read the freakin' manual you so love to quote! A little understanding would lead you to sheepishly withdraw all you've said. Any fool can retype irrelevant passages. You sure have.

Now either support your foundation statement, "the only two pieces of information you need to shoot a torpedo are target speed and torpedo speed." or go away.

There was another equally deluded guy who claimed that putting the enemy on your 80 degree or 280 degree bearing guaranteed his course was at right angles to your own.... He loved to quote the Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual in invalid ways too. Hint: the STFC manual does not depend on Black Magic.

Trigonometry is not black magic.

Here you go.

27 knot Yamato
46 knot torpedoes

From my table 30 degree firing bearing.

I never touch the TDC or develop a range, AOB or any of that other unnecessary stuff.

As long as you are in a firing position with the head of the boat 70 to 110 degrees off the target bearing, the table of values works like a charm.