Isn't the TMA a little too perfect?

[Shadriss]

Originally Posted by shipkiller1

Shadriss, I hope you got as big a laugh on this proverbial BULL**** has I did... What a load of crap...

Oh, yes. Yes indeed. It's just right enough to deceive the folks who know nothing, and wrong enough to completely screw you over entirely.

TMA may be a complex geometry/trigonometry problem, but it's still simple enough that it could be modeled relatively accurately in the game, yet it isn't... not to the degree it should be, anyhow. The ranges jumping all over the place is one example, but another is the way that it gives no idea of relative motion prior to getting the 95% solution (the WHA?!?!). BRGRT is the first and possibly the most important fire control parameter determined (well, second... you know which one I'm talking about, Shipkiller1...), and to not have the vital and valuable information that it presents is just plain silly.

We drive off of BRGRT, for heaven's sake... to not have it is almost as much a handcuff as the lack of fine speed control.

As an aside, Shipkiller... thanks for using the old school FC terminology - they changed it back around 2000, and I STILL have a hard time using it, even though it SEEMS more intuitive.

[shipkiller1]

Originally Posted by Shadriss

Oh, yes. Yes indeed. It's just right enough to deceive the folks who know nothing, and wrong enough to completely screw you over entirely.

TMA may be a complex geometry/trigonometry problem, but it's still simple enough that it could be modeled relatively accurately in the game, yet it isn't... not to the degree it should be, anyhow. The ranges jumping all over the place is one example, but another is the way that it gives no idea of relative motion prior to getting the 95% solution (the WHA?!?!). BRGRT is the first and possibly the most important fire control parameter determined (well, second... you know which one I'm talking about, Shipkiller1...), and to not have the vital and valuable information that it presents is just plain silly.

We drive off of BRGRT, for heaven's sake... to not have it is almost as much a handcuff as the lack of fine speed control.

As an aside, Shipkiller... thanks for using the old school FC terminology - they changed it back around 2000, and I STILL have a hard time using it, even though it SEEMS more intuitive.

The reason it was changed, I **** you not, was because the newer crop of Officers could not remember the 'old and antiqated' terms. Terms that have been around for 60 years and us 'dumb ass' enlisted men could figure out pretty quickly.

BYG-1 TI04 (APB-05) was the big change.

[Shadriss]

Originally Posted by shipkiller1

The reason it was changed, I **** you not, was because the newer crop of Officers could not remember the 'old and antiqated' terms. Terms that have been around for 60 years and us 'dumb ass' enlisted men could figure out pretty quickly.

BYG-1 TI04 (APB-05) was the big change.

I was close than. I figured some Admiral somewhere was trying to justify his paycheck. Close enough. They made PERFECT sense... you just had to not be a moron or too proud to ASK the professionals... by which I mean the Enlisted.

[Destex]

When determining firing solutions, you should change course every 10-12 minutes.
After changing course, your sensors are in a new location and, thus, detect the track from a different bearing. An accurate firing solution is not affected by your change in course, as your sensors detect the track from the anticipated bearing.

Ahhhhh! My brain hurts! someone mixed TMA with mapping coastal sites. Facepalm moment of the week.

[stormrider_sp]

Originally Posted by Destex

Ahhhhh! My brain hurts! someone mixed TMA with mapping coastal sites. Facepalm moment of the week.

The whole chapter for you:

PLOT
The Plot helps you refine the course, speed, and range of the tracks you
are monitoring. To be effective, the Plot should be used with other firing
solution tools, such as the Passive and Active Fire Control and the Periscope.
DETERMINING A FIRING SOLUTION
Every 30 seconds, the Plot receives and plots data from your trackers,
then draws lines indicating the bearing at which your submarine’s trackers
sensed the track. To use the plot, you must
position the blue line upon the track’s
estimated location and align it with the
course that you believe the track to be
following.
• In the upper left corner, click on the
track number for which you desire to
find a firing solution.
• You may zoom in and out of the
display by clicking on the ZOOM
button’s + and - keys. You may scroll
the display up, down, left, or right, by clicking on the arrow keys to
the right of the ZOOM buttons.
• In the blue SPEED RULER section, click on the right or left course
arrows until the dots of the light blue line intersect each of the track’s
detected bearing lines. Zoom in if necessary. Click with the left
mouse button to make minor changes. Click with the right mouse
button to make major changes.
• Your solution will be good when each of the black bearing lines has a
blue dot that falls directly upon it. Click on the RANGE button’s +
and - keys to move the blue line up and down the bearing lines.
Click on the SPEED button’s + and - keys to change the “tightness”
of the dots.
• The most efficient way to refine the track’s estimated location is to
determine a preliminary solution, then dramatically change your
submarine’s current course or speed. If you change course, try to
cross the bearing of the target. Once your boat’s position changes,
your sensors detect the track from a different bearing. If you have an
accurate solution, the new bearing lines will fall directly upon the
entered solution dots. If your solution is inaccurate, the bearing line
50
falls off the solution dots. When your solution proves to be inaccurate,
find a solution that works for your new and old ship course, then
change your course again to test your new solution.
• Once you have a good solution, click on SAVE. If you wish, you may
come back to this solution later.
• After saving, click on SEND. Your submarine’s computers send the
saved information to your weapons.
Note: The Plot assumes that the track travels at a steady course and
speed. This may not always be the case. If a track changes course or
speed, you may not use the bearing lines detected before the change to
determine a solution.
The buttons used to work with the Plot are detailed below.
Button Function
Plots 1234 Correspond to the four tracks you previously
assigned to trackers in Sonar or the Periscope;
selected track buttons highlight
green.
ELAPSED PLOT Tells how much time you spend plotting TIME
tracks.
TRACK ID Displays the designation number of the
currently displayed track.
LAST BEARING Indicates the last detected bearing on the
currently displayed track.
ACTIVE Displays your sub’s firing solution.
SAVE By clicking on RULER or DRAW in the
SAVED section, you may retrieve a solution
you previously saved. DRAW enables you to
work with more than one solution, which may
be helpful if the track changes course or
speed.
SPEED RULER You may change the track’s estimated course,
range, and speed by clicking on the arrow or
+ and - buttons.
ZOOM Increases/decreases magnification of the plot.
Center Centers the plot on your submarine.
Arrow keys around Scroll the plot paper to the left, right, up,
center or down.
51
REDRAW Redraws your solution so that you may
rework it from the beginning.
OWN SHIP Displays your submarine’s course, speed,
and range.
FIRE CONTROL
Fire Control has four modes: Passive, Active, Torpedo, and Harpoon
(UGM 84). In the Passive Mode, Fire Control helps you anticipate the
future location of as many as four tracks
that you previously assigned to trackers.
Fire Control provides the best firing
solution possible given the information that
it has received, then computes the settings
that allow a weapon to be properly aimed
at a track. (On “Easy” difficulty, you will
start with a goal solution. On “Standard”
you will start with an approximate solution.
On “Real,” you start with what you
can set.) The Active Mode helps you
determine a track’s range and bearing and refine your firing solution with
active sonar. The Torpedo Mode allows you to guide a fired MK-48
torpedo to its intended track. The UGM Mode enables you to program the
flight path that a Harpoon missile follows. In each of the modes, you may
zoom or scroll the display using the buttons at the bottom left of the
screen. Weapons status lights in the upper left corner inform you of the
status of any weapons you may have fired upon the track.
FIRE CONTROL PASSIVE MODE
To enable the Fire Control BSY Passive mode, click on an alreadyassigned
track number, and then click the PASS button.
When you assign a target to a tracker, the track is updated every 30
seconds. This bearing information displays as a string of dots. Each new
dot signifies the latest information that Fire Control has received. To
ensure your weapon reaches its intended track, you must align the string of
dots to the center line.
Solution Select Switches
After you have at least five or six bearing dots displaying on Passive
Fire Control, try to align the dots on the center line by clicking on the left
and right arrows of the Solution Select’s RANGE, COURSE, and SPEED
switches. As you click on these buttons, you change the system’s estimated
information on how far the track is from your submarine, the course
it is traveling upon, and how fast it is moving.
52
The surest way to find an accurate solution is to click on COURSE
first, then refine SPEED and RANGE. Click on these switches with the
left mouse button to make small refinements. Click with the right mouse
button to make major changes. When the dots are reasonably aligned to
the center, press ENTR to send your solution to your weapons. If time
permits, you should check the accuracy of your solution by changing the
course of your submarine by 60 degrees or more and seeing if the solution
stays aligned. If not, readjust and check it again.
Zooming In
You may zoom in on your solution to ensure its accuracy by clicking
on the ZOOM field’s + button. Zoom out by clicking on the – button.
When you first begin to work on a solution, zoom out as far as possible.
As your solution becomes more accurate, zoom in to make refinements.
CAN’T GET AN ACCURATE SOLUTION?
If you are having trouble getting an accurate solution, take the following
steps, as appropriate:
Change Course
Determining a track’s range is the most difficult part of the firing
solution. The best way to determine range is to:
• Align the dots as closely as possible to the center line;
• Click on ENTR; then
• Change your course by at least 60 degrees and attempt to cross the
track’s bearing. When determining firing solutions, you should
change course every 10-12 minutes.
After changing course, your sensors are in a new location and, thus,
detect the track from a different bearing. An accurate firing solution is not
affected by your change in course, as your sensors detect the track from
the anticipated bearing. An inaccurate firing solution, however, causes all
new dots to be out of alignment.
Slow Your Boat
When your submarine is traveling quickly, you have a harder time
detecting the tracks that are operating around you. When determining a
firing solution, slow your submarine to approximately five knots. Once
you have a solution you wish to check by changing course, you can
increase your speed as the submarine makes the turn. When your helmsman
reports the submarine steady upon its new course, immediately slow
your submarine again to 5 knots. Do not travel at high speeds on a steady
course for long periods of time or you become an easy target.
53
Click on Enter
Click on ENTR frequently. Each time you click on ENTR, you send
the location where you believe the track to be to your weapons system.
The last bearing dot becomes anchored to the center line. After anchoring
a point, you may work to align subsequent points.
Click on Clear
Tracks may change course or “zig.” If it appears that the track has
changed course, all previous bearing dots are useless. Click on ENTR to
set an anchor point, then erase the previous dots by clicking on CLR. All
dots before the anchor point are erased.
Advance to the Periscope
You may estimate a track’s range and bearing by viewing it through the
Periscope and “marking” it for range. A track that is far from you appears
short, while one that is nearby appears tall.
Advance to the Plot
If the bearing dots are so randomly placed that you cannot get a
solution, exit Fire Control and advance to the Plot Screen. It is often
easier to obtain an initial solution from the Plot, which you can then refine
at Fire Control.

[Destex]

Originally Posted by stormrider_sp

The whole chapter for you:

Thanks for the out of context wall of text. The quoted part in my previous post is still nonsense. Adding more words before and after it won't change that.

[Destex]

Sorry for the spite reply, let me explain my comment further

The quoted part is terribly wrong since it implies that the geographical disposition of the sub allows you to perform triangulation of the target. Since the target is moving, that's bollocks. It can be true only if the target is stationary which is extremely rare. That's how you determine the positions of fixed sites on the shore, and not how you perform TMA for moving targets.

[PL_Harpoon]

So, what you're saying is, the whole concept of TMA in Fast Attack and Dangerous Waters is BS, or is it just the techniques they encourage?

I'm asking because they seem legit. If you get a constant set of bearings and the target isn't changing course/speed a single course change can give you a pretty good solution.

[Destex]

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

So, what you're saying is, the whole concept of TMA in Fast Attack and Dangerous Waters is BS, or is it just the techniques they encourage?

No, that's not what I'm saying. I didn't play Fast Attack but DW TMA is just fine because all it gives you (when AI crew is off) is bearings. You can't fool it because it's restricted to pure math which is great. You manipulate the target strip in order to find the solution. You will note that if you didn't maneuver, there are infinite possibilities for a solution. If you did maneuver, this range of possibilities start to shrink.

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

I'm asking because they seem legit. If you get a constant set of bearings and the target isn't changing course/speed a single course change can give you a pretty good solution.

That is completely true. However, implying that what allows it is the geographical disposition of the sub, as the quoted part from FA manual do, is nonsense.

TMA is an art of relative movement, it's conducted against a moving element. It's essentially a process by which the target bearing rate is collected on different legs of the sub. The more you get, the better the solution will be. To put it in DW terms - The range in which a single target strip's dots will stack against the lines of bearing will be restrained to a single position - that position is the solution.

[PL_Harpoon]

Originally Posted by Destex

That is completely true. However, implying that what allows it is the geographical disposition of the sub, as the quoted part from FA manual do, is nonsense.

Thanks. I get your point now

BTW, the TMA in Fast Attack is very similar to DW except you have separate stations for plot where you move the "speed ruler" on the map and the fire control station where you manipulate the Range, Course and Speed to stack the "contact dots" (forgive me for using my own names for these things) in a vertical line.

This is the plot station:



and this is how fire control looks:

[Destex]

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

Thanks. I get your point now
BTW, the TMA in Fast Attack is very similar to DW except you have separate stations for plot where you move the "speed ruler" on the map and the fire control station where you manipulate the Range, Course and Speed to stack the "contact dots" (forgive me for using my own names for these things) in a vertical line.

Thanks for the info, and no worries, I struggle with translation here as I'm not a native English speaker, I bet I use the wrong terms myself

It's very much possible that the TMA model in FA is great, but the manual just explains it wrong. In fact, I pretty much believe this is the case.

[stormrider_sp]

Originally Posted by Destex

Thanks for the info, and no worries, I struggle with translation here as I'm not a native English speaker, I bet I use the wrong terms myself

It's very much possible that the TMA model in FA is great, but the manual just explains it wrong. In fact, I pretty much believe this is the case.

The strange thing about it all, is that the manual was intended to serve as a training manual for the SSN Louisville Library.



Probably its me, but maybe you're missing the point of what the manual suggests. It's obvious that if both emitter and receiver are moving, it wouldn't make sense to change course in order to triangulate the target's position, but as far as I understand it, it's not what it's suggesting either. As I understand, it suggests to change course every 10-12min intervals in order to verify the alignment of the dots with the reference line in Fire Control Console so as to validate the solution.

[Julhelm]

Originally Posted by stormrider_sp

The strange thing about it all, is that the manual was intended to serve as a training manual for the SSN Louisville Library.

LOL

[shipkiller1]

The second picture, the Fire Control Display is called the "Bearing Difference Plot"

That manual was written by Sierra Games for the game.

[Destex]

Originally Posted by stormrider_sp

As I understand, it suggests to change course every 10-12min intervals in order to verify the alignment of the dots with the reference line in Fire Control Console so as to validate the solution.

As I said you (and the manual) are correct when saying TMA maneuvers are essential to narrow down the possible solutions for the target.
However, the reason why ownship manuevers are required is explained in the following way:

An accurate firing solution is not affected by your change in course, as your sensors detect the track from the anticipated bearing

And that is, completely wrong.