Can you beat the '68 Campaign in anything but a Skipjack?

[caine007]

Originally Posted by Shadow

Hmm. It seems torpedo wrangling isn't all that effective against newer Soviet subs.

In my current '68 campaign, it had worked against older diesels but my last mission was against an SSG wolfpack. Turned out to be a Juliet and, much to my surprise, a Victor I instead of the expected diesel escort. Very silent, and I couldn't detect it so I kept baiting it with active sonar to betray its general location.

Three torpedoes were sent my way, in total. The first one far enough it could be easily dodged. As soon as it was fired, I turned to face its general direction (only had the transient to work with) and my Skipjack steamed ahead at 20 knots. A second torpedo came in, and it was hot on my tail by the time the Victor emerged into view (couldn't fathom playing without reduced underwater visibility). I swirled around it, trying to return the warhead to the owner, but with the Soviet being dead in the water and my boat on flank, the torp just wouldn't pick it up.

The third torp came out, and things started getting hectic. I was an idiot for not being more traditional, try to get a window and fire off a torpedo of my own, but I was rather befuddled the enemy fishes remained zealously loyal to the Soviet Union. In the end one bit into my rudder and that was that. Luckily I was within escape depth, but in retrospective I could've handled it better.

The Victors are lethal in '68. Somehow in my Permit game I didn't see a single one. They're very close to being immune to Mk 37's and if you're in a 25 knot boat and they know where you are, just scare them off and try and leave the area, you won't catch them.

[ChaosphereIX]

just finished another '68 campaign with HMS Conqueror. Super fun you guys should try the UK subs in the mod. Just give up on the Mk8 torps, and go with all Tigerfish and be patient.

Trafalgar in 84 was fun as well.

Next: Upholder campaign to appease my inner Canadian, then Astute, Rubis, and Swiftsure.

[caine007]

Originally Posted by ChaosphereIX

just finished another '68 campaign with HMS Conqueror. Super fun you guys should try the UK subs in the mod. Just give up on the Mk8 torps, and go with all Tigerfish and be patient.

Trafalgar in 84 was fun as well.

Next: Upholder campaign to appease my inner Canadian, then Astute, Rubis, and Swiftsure.

Nice. Any plans for some Oberons for us down under types?

[Shadow]

Rather frustrated with this campaign at the moment. Been driving Skipjacks exclusively: I don't know about the other subs' sonar, but the Skipjack's is pretty poor for US standards, and sub-to-sub engagements are a crapshoot which often have me resort to arguably gamey tactics just to have the enemy give away its position. I tend to tempt them with active sonar, knowing they'll fire at me, and then I can usually evade the torpedo (instant kill if it hits) and home in on the launch location.

But it's boring most of the time. I do torpedo wrangling and can sometimes return fishes to their owners, which can be more effective than relying on my absolutely terrible armament. It leads me to believe a Cold War gone hot in the late 1960s would've been a decisive Soviet win at sea at least. The Mk 16 is a nigh-useless relic against anything with a sonar and some maneuverability unless spent in unsustainable volumes, and the Mk 37's eye-watering sluggishness makes me wonder just how on Earth someone approved it becoming the US Navy's mainstay torpedo. And then there's the bug which allows enemy vessels to detect passive torpedoes in their baffles, which only further degrades the 37's already poor performance.

In the end, it feels like I have to cheese the subs to beat them, and warships feel unassailable 80% of the time. Surface-wise, the best I can do is focus on objectives, which are usually merchants, and most medals seem exceedingly out of reach considering the thresholds are the same whether you're puttering about with a Permit in '68 or annihilating everything in your sight on a Los Angeles in '84.

Sorry about the rant. Had to get it off my chest. I really like Cold Waters, but criticism is due where it's due.

[caine007]

Originally Posted by Shadow

Rather frustrated with this campaign at the moment. Been driving Skipjacks exclusively: I don't know about the other subs' sonar, but the Skipjack's is pretty poor for US standards, and sub-to-sub engagements are a crapshoot which often have me resort to arguably gamey tactics just to have the enemy give away its position. I tend to tempt them with active sonar, knowing they'll fire at me, and then I can usually evade the torpedo (instant kill if it hits) and home in on the launch location.

But it's boring most of the time. I do torpedo wrangling and can sometimes return fishes to their owners, which can be more effective than relying on my absolutely terrible armament. It leads me to believe a Cold War gone hot in the late 1960s would've been a decisive Soviet win at sea at least. The Mk 16 is a nigh-useless relic against anything with a sonar and some maneuverability unless spent in unsustainable volumes, and the Mk 37's eye-watering sluggishness makes me wonder just how on Earth someone approved it becoming the US Navy's mainstay torpedo. And then there's the bug which allows enemy vessels to detect passive torpedoes in their baffles, which only further degrades the 37's already poor performance.

In the end, it feels like I have to cheese the subs to beat them, and warships feel unassailable 80% of the time. Surface-wise, the best I can do is focus on objectives, which are usually merchants, and most medals seem exceedingly out of reach considering the thresholds are the same whether you're puttering about with a Permit in '68 or annihilating everything in your sight on a Los Angeles in '84.

Sorry about the rant. Had to get it off my chest. I really like Cold Waters, but criticism is due where it's due.

I definitely had this opinion at first. '68 is HARD. I did get to the point though where I think I had surface engagements down pat though. Once you figure out how to get close enough (rear approach, flank speed deep) and how to keep the escorts off you when they spot you (Mark 37 would like to be your friend) they become kinda fun.

The thing I can't get over is the terrible sonar and how awful 37's are at sinking subs. I gave up trying to find the Yankee in the final mission and even supposedly noisy 50's boats take forever to find. I tend to get bored, go active and wait for them to shoot. Then I charge and basically dance around them waiting for however many 37's it takes to lock on, not wire break, not get distracted and actually do enough damage to sink whatever it is. I've genuinely considered ramming sometimes.

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by caine007

I definitely had this opinion at first. '68 is HARD. I did get to the point though where I think I had surface engagements down pat though. Once you figure out how to get close enough (rear approach, flank speed deep) and how to keep the escorts off you when they spot you (Mark 37 would like to be your friend) they become kinda fun.

The thing I can't get over is the terrible sonar and how awful 37's are at sinking subs. I gave up trying to find the Yankee in the final mission and even supposedly noisy 50's boats take forever to find. I tend to get bored, go active and wait for them to shoot. Then I charge and basically dance around them waiting for however many 37's it takes to lock on, not wire break, not get distracted and actually do enough damage to sink whatever it is. I've genuinely considered ramming sometimes.

It's not about difficulty, but rather frustrating boredom. The enemy is not necessarily a threat if you know to be careful, but you can't do much harm beyond unarmed ships unless you're really lucky and an escort is gunning straight for you, setting itself up for a down-the-throat Mk 16 shot, or it turns the wrong way when evading an Mk 37 (noticed they can do that if you make them aware of your position mid-evasion).

Sure, even if a 37 doesn't hit, it can keep Soviet warships busy for a good long while, opening the door to hitting mission targets. But it's not exactly exciting to be relegated to sinking tenders/transports all the time.

And subs are just hard to detect, but again, not too dangerous unless you botch your evasive maneuvers.

So ultimately, it's difficult for Ivan to hit you, and so is to hit them. Perhaps just fixing the baffles passive torp detection bug would be enough to make battles and positioning more interesting, and Mk 37s more reliable. Mk 16s could have their launch depth extended to 200ft, and given a circle search pattern (sources have been discussed elsewhere). Overall, I think both sides need to be made more dangerous: AI improvements will help the Soviets, and ironing out the bugs and balancing should help us in turn, producing more intense combat and less drunken fights.

PS: As for ramming, one time a November could've clipped my sail due to a miscalculation of mine, but my boat went right through. Seems vessel collisions aren't modelled.

[caine007]

There are definitely less toys and less options in 68 and I admit I began to find the sub missions kind of monotonous. Reducing the 37's detection in the baffles is a must.

[Julhelm]

Maybe we should bite the bullet and just include tactical nukes for 68. Feel free to use them, but if you do, so will the Soviets.

[kstanb]

I totally agree to the point that I need to resort to exploits/ gamey stuff to win. I am going to try the Soviet (MOD) campaign, at least I will have working torpedoes

They need to do a full rework on the detection and the behavior of ships/ subs that are targeted. 68's campaign doesn't work with so lighting strike speeds of ship maneuvering, dodging out of danger

And unguided torpedoes like the Mk16 were not relics at all in real life

Originally Posted by Shadow

Rather frustrated with this campaign at the moment. Been driving Skipjacks exclusively: I don't know about the other subs' sonar, but the Skipjack's is pretty poor for US standards, and sub-to-sub engagements are a crapshoot which often have me resort to arguably gamey tactics just to have the enemy give away its position. I tend to tempt them with active sonar, knowing they'll fire at me, and then I can usually evade the torpedo (instant kill if it hits) and home in on the launch location.

But it's boring most of the time. I do torpedo wrangling and can sometimes return fishes to their owners, which can be more effective than relying on my absolutely terrible armament. It leads me to believe a Cold War gone hot in the late 1960s would've been a decisive Soviet win at sea at least. The Mk 16 is a nigh-useless relic against anything with a sonar and some maneuverability unless spent in unsustainable volumes, and the Mk 37's eye-watering sluggishness makes me wonder just how on Earth someone approved it becoming the US Navy's mainstay torpedo. And then there's the bug which allows enemy vessels to detect passive torpedoes in their baffles, which only further degrades the 37's already poor performance.

In the end, it feels like I have to cheese the subs to beat them, and warships feel unassailable 80% of the time. Surface-wise, the best I can do is focus on objectives, which are usually merchants, and most medals seem exceedingly out of reach considering the thresholds are the same whether you're puttering about with a Permit in '68 or annihilating everything in your sight on a Los Angeles in '84.

Sorry about the rant. Had to get it off my chest. I really like Cold Waters, but criticism is due where it's due.