Issue with the O'Kane method. Also: savegames

[Sniper297]

Unless I'm misreading this, the error is in adding two things together. One method is to guess the speed, use an angle-off. Example target moving left to right at 10 knots, lead angle about 12 degrees. Aim scope straight ahead, send range and bearing to TDC. SPEED SET TO ZERO.

That sets the fish to a zero gyro angle, they head straight out with no turns. Turn scope 12 degrees left (348 degrees relative) and OPEN OUTER DOORS (also important, otherwise there's a delay and the fish will miss behind). When target is in crosshairs fire, target and torpedo meet dead ahead of sub.

Now.

If you estimate speed at 10, set AOB to 90 and set speed at 10 in the TDC, along with using angle-off, the TDC will set the gyro angle to 12 degrees right, you're firing with the scope 12 degrees left, add the angle-off aiming of 10 knots to the TDC speed of 10 knots, the effect would be a target speed of 20 knots - so you miss ahead of a 10 knot target every time.

Use one method or the other, adding them together results in the wrong speed and therefore wrong firing angle.

[Barkerov]

Originally Posted by Sniper297

If you estimate speed at 10, set AOB to 90 and set speed at 10 in the TDC, along with using angle-off, the TDC will set the gyro angle to 12 degrees right, you're firing with the scope 12 degrees left, add the angle-off aiming of 10 knots to the TDC speed of 10 knots, the effect would be a target speed of 20 knots - so you miss ahead of a 10 knot target every time.

Use one method or the other, adding them together results in the wrong speed and therefore wrong firing angle.

That's how I am seeing it!

[Gray Lensman]

Though it's not apparent in his post(s), maybe he unknowingly has his torpedoes set to FAST speed but sets up for a SLOW speed shot per DepthToKeel's video that he's using. That for sure would lead to torpedoes passing in front EVERY time.

edit... Ah... I see Rockin' Robbins already mentioned that.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

Though it's not apparent in his post(s), maybe he unknowingly has his torpedoes set to FAST speed but sets up for a SLOW speed shot per DepthToKeel's video that he's using. That for sure would lead to torpedoes passing in front EVERY time.

edit... Ah... I see Rockin' Robbins already mentioned that.

That kind of error is what comes from overthinking the problem. Complexity is not the same as precision. Sometimes it ruins precision. Keep it simple equals hit your targets. Forget the fussy stuff.

A perfect example would be the Battle of Gettysburg. How many people think a frontal attack against the strong point of the enemy, mostly uphill over clear terrain over at least a half mile of killing ground was typical of General Lee's battle methods? Lee won his battles by misdirection and unexpected movement, not frontal assaults! So what part of the puzzle are we not taught? The missing part of the puzzle is the invincible Confederate cavalry. It's job was to circle around the Union Army and take them on the rear at a certain time. That would weaken the attack point in front, ensuring the collapse of the Union army. But a man disgraced today, George Armstrong Custer, attacked the front of the Confederate cavalry with a measly two hundred men with such ferocity that the Confederates considered such an attack would only take place if there was huge backing behind. Instead the way was clear behind Custer. Had the Confederates engaged, in fifteen minutes they would have been on their way to another victory. Instead, they were induced by chaos into making the wrong decision. Complexity wrought error. Error brought defeat.

The same thing happened in the Pacific war with the attack of Taffy 3 on Japanese capital ships on the way to the Philippine invasion beaches. In fifteen minutes all those destroyers and escort carriers could have been on the bottom and the Japanese fleet falling on the rear of our invasion ships. But the Japanese considered that such a stupid attack could only imply tremendous backing behind. They retreated, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. It was an exact reenactment hidden decisive action of the Battle of Gettysburg, but wetter.

First of all: Thanks everyone for the answers, especially RockinRobins for the quick rundown of how the method actually works. Since i took the video I posted as the start point I was under the impression that you take the TDC out of the equation and try to get exact 90° angles.

I now see how stupid this is since the TDC can mitigate a lot of the errors you make in the setup and will use this method in the future.

However: The method I described should still work as long as you are exact and after long testing i finally found the answer.
I was about to rip my hair out after trying it exactly like RockinRobins said but still got no hit. It wasn't because I set anything wrong.
It was the Torpedo Depth. Either I am very unlucky or it's normal that they all run too deep. I alway set the depth to a few feet above the targets draft but never got a hit (I thought the were passing in front of the target but after checking the attack map again they were all more or less dead on).
As soon as I set the depth to about 5 feet I got hits, with the method I tried first and with the actual Dick O'Kane RockinRobins described.

Now I can finally start my actual carreer and not get insane after repeatedly not getting any torpedo hits.
Well, I still have a lot to learn, especially about attacking convoys and avoiding screens but at least I can reliable sink single merchants now

So, thanks again for the help everyone!

Edit: I also figured out the problem with the savegames. Seems like the game doesn't like it if you load a savegame when you are still in the sub. When I quit the game and then load the savefile, everything is fine.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by dergrunty

First of all: Thanks everyone for the answers, especially RockinRobins for the quick rundown of how the method actually works. Since i took the video I posted as the start point I was under the impression that you take the TDC out of the equation and try to get exact 90° angles.

I now see how stupid this is since the TDC can mitigate a lot of the errors you make in the setup and will use this method in the future.

However: The method I described should still work as long as you are exact and after long testing i finally found the answer.
I was about to rip my hair out after trying it exactly like RockinRobins said but still got no hit. It wasn't because I set anything wrong.
It was the Torpedo Depth. Either I am very unlucky or it's normal that they all run too deep. I alway set the depth to a few feet above the targets draft but never got a hit (I thought the were passing in front of the target but after checking the attack map again they were all more or less dead on).
As soon as I set the depth to about 5 feet I got hits, with the method I tried first and with the actual Dick O'Kane RockinRobins described.

Now I can finally start my actual carreer and not get insane after repeatedly not getting any torpedo hits.
Well, I still have a lot to learn, especially about attacking convoys and avoiding screens but at least I can reliable sink single merchants now

So, thanks again for the help everyone!

Edit: I also figured out the problem with the savegames. Seems like the game doesn't like it if you load a savegame when you are still in the sub. When I quit the game and then load the savefile, everything is fine.

Yahoo! Now get to work. The fishies are depending on you to sink them some new habitat.

[max-peck]

Originally Posted by dergrunty

It was the Torpedo Depth. Either I am very unlucky or it's normal that they all run too deep. I alway set the depth to a few feet above the targets draft but never got a hit (I thought the were passing in front of the target but after checking the attack map again they were all more or less dead on).
As soon as I set the depth to about 5 feet I got hits, with the method I tried first and with the actual Dick O'Kane RockinRobins described

Good stuff - well done for catching that
There were many skippers on early war patrols that did not realise that was what was happening, as far as they were concerned they just kept missing

And of course as far as the Bureau of Ordnance was concerned there was absolutely nothing wrong with the torpedoes - they kept to the Department line that it was the skippers fault for entering incorrect data into the TDC

And that was not the only problem with the Mark 14 torpedo - there were a number of faults
When they would fix one of them, it would then make the next fault apparent

Makes for some sobering reading
http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/s...u-of-ordnance/
http://www.historynet.com/us-torpedo...rld-war-ii.htm

A few things to bear in mind

If you have Duds turned on in the options screen you can expect the following until about the middle of 1943

1 - They will run 10-12 feet deeper than set

2 - Magnetic exploders may well either fail entirely, or explode prematurely. Prematures more likely the rougher the sea state

3 - The contact exploder may fail. Failures are more likely with using the fast torpedo speed, and also with impact angles close to 90 degrees
Eg a 45 degree angle is much more likely to result in an explosion, pretty much the opposite of how the skippers had been taught to attack in peacetime exercises

4 - This one is a real doozy Very occasionally either the gyro or rudder will get stuck on full lock(I cannot remember now which one was the source of the problem). The torpedo will now circle back and attempt to sink you
Never mind - the exploders are so lousy it probably won't go off
There is at least one (possibly two) recorded instances during the Pacific Submarine War of a submarine being sunk by its own torpedo (The names of the boats escape me now)
Plus who knows. Lots of boats just failed to report in. We do not know if any of them experienced the same situation.

Another important thing to bear in mind
If you have duds turned off in the options, you should not experience problems 2, 3 and 4
However - your torpedoes will still run 10-12 feet deeper than set until mid '43
Disclaimer - I am going by memory now, but I am sure I have tested this in the past and found it to be the case
If anyone has found evidence to the contrary - please post - I will happily be proved wrong

The equivalent would be sending a rifleman into battle with a rifle that will only reliably shoot straight 3 times out of 10.
6 times the shot will not hit anything, no matter where they aim it
And one time out of 10 the bullet will shoot backwards straight out of the breech and attempt to hit the user in the face
In my opinion the failures of BuORD were negligent, bordering on criminal
Even worse was the refusal to accept there may be a problem, and the blaming of skippers for the problems
And that it took a whole 18 Months to fix all the problems undoubtedly (IMO) lengthened the Pacific War
But that is just my 2 cents

A few final things

If you stick with it you may find this game the most immersive life consuming game you have ever played
The feeling of picking off a fat merchant from a convoy, sneaking away whilst being pinged and depth charged for hours, then surfacing, doing an end around and attacking another ship from the same convoy the next night - well - there is nothing like it
Real cat and mouse stuff
I tell you - I must have over 100 games on Steam, plus many more non Steam games
But SH4 is the one I keep coming back to
Like an old comfort blanket

Plus SH4 is a game I can comfortably play whilst drinking a beer and smoking a cigarette

You are lucky that you found SUBSIM
Sure there may not be many of us around these days still playing SH4 - but those of us still here absolutely love this game
And you should always find a friendly face to answer any questions you may have

And last but not least

A hearty welcome aboard dergrunty

Good hunting

[max-peck]

And I just finish here with this quote from Historynet

What must never be forgotten is the fact that just over 50 years ago, submariners were forced to engage the enemy for 18 months with ordnance that proved to be at least 70 percent unreliable.
Often, Japanese merchantmen would enter port with unexploded Mark XIV torpedoes thrust into their hulls.
Despite the problems with ordnance, American submariners, a mere two percent of U.S. naval personnel, sank more than 1,178 merchant vessels and 214 warships, totalling more than 5,600,000 tons.
They sacrificed 52 submarines, 374 officers and 3,131 enlisted men from their close-knit ranks.
The Silent Service suffered 40 percent of all naval casualties in the Pacific, yet managed to destroy 55 percent of all Japanese ships.
American submarines succeeded where the Germans had twice failed–in the systematic and complete blockade of an island nation.

One can only speculate as to the war’s outcome had there been reliable torpedoes available from the onset.
As for the American submarine campaign against Japan, we must always honor its sacrifices, take pride in its accomplishments and continue to learn from its mistakes–mistakes that fostered a scandal described by Clay Blair, Jr., as ‘the worst in the history of any kind of warfare.’

[cdrsubron7]

Originally Posted by max-peck

And I just finish here with this quote from Historynet

What must never be forgotten is the fact that just over 50 years ago, submariners were forced to engage the enemy for 18 months with ordnance that proved to be at least 70 percent unreliable.
Often, Japanese merchantmen would enter port with unexploded Mark XIV torpedoes thrust into their hulls.
Despite the problems with ordnance, American submariners, a mere two percent of U.S. naval personnel, sank more than 1,178 merchant vessels and 214 warships, totalling more than 5,600,000 tons.
They sacrificed 52 submarines, 374 officers and 3,131 enlisted men from their close-knit ranks.
The Silent Service suffered 40 percent of all naval casualties in the Pacific, yet managed to destroy 55 percent of all Japanese ships.
American submarines succeeded where the Germans had twice failed–in the systematic and complete blockade of an island nation.

One can only speculate as to the war’s outcome had there been reliable torpedoes available from the onset.
As for the American submarine campaign against Japan, we must always honor its sacrifices, take pride in its accomplishments and continue to learn from its mistakes–mistakes that fostered a scandal described by Clay Blair, Jr., as ‘the worst in the history of any kind of warfare.’

Greetings, my friend. Don't be a stranger, stop by the home thread and say Hi.

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by max-peck

<snip>

4 - This one is a real doozy Very occasionally either the gyro or rudder will get stuck on full lock(I cannot remember now which one was the source of the problem). The torpedo will now circle back and attempt to sink you
Never mind - the exploders are so lousy it probably won't go off
There is at least one (possibly two) recorded instances during the Pacific Submarine War of a submarine being sunk by its own torpedo (The names of the boats escape me now)

<snip>

Chuckling here...

This thread is about a game technique named for the Captain of the U.S.S Tang, (Richard O'Kane) one of the known recorded instances of a submarine being sunk by its own torpedo. Just pointing out a small irony here... LOL.

[Rockin Robbins]

Note that I was being very quiet there.....

[max-peck]

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

Chuckling here...

This thread is about a game technique named for the Captain of the U.S.S Tang, (Richard O'Kane) one of the known recorded instances of a submarine being sunk by its own torpedo. Just pointing out a small irony here... LOL.

Of course - I did not even see that

Feeling a little bit ashamed now

Nice write up max-peck and thanks for the welcome.
I indeed have duds turned on and even knew about the unreliability of american torpedoes, however I kept thinking that I had made an error somewhere, since I'm still pretty new to SH4

Originally Posted by max-peck

4 - This one is a real doozy Very occasionally either the gyro or rudder will get stuck on full lock(I cannot remember now which one was the source of the problem). The torpedo will now circle back and attempt to sink you

That actually happened to me at one point. Fired two torpedoes at the target, checked the attack map and noticed that one of then was making a hard left turn
I put the sub in full reverse and watched as the torpedo passed about 10m (well probably more but it looked close) in front of me.
That would have been a fitting end to my career, wasting about 15 torpedoes with misses and at the end sinking myself with one...

[BarracudaUAK]

Originally Posted by dergrunty

Nice write up max-peck and thanks for the welcome.
I indeed have duds turned on and even knew about the unreliability of american torpedoes, however I kept thinking that I had made an error somewhere, since I'm still pretty new to SH4




That actually happened to me at one point. Fired two torpedoes at the target, checked the attack map and noticed that one of then was making a hard left turn
I put the sub in full reverse and watched as the torpedo passed about 10m (well probably more but it looked close) in front of me.
That would have been a fitting end to my career, wasting about 15 torpedoes with misses and at the end sinking myself with one...

German U-boats with homing torpedoes would dive after launching since the torpedoes could hear them and would sometimes turn around and go after the U-boat...

Might not be a bad idea when in deep water to follow that example, if it is a circle runner, then it would pass above you.

You lose the ability to know exactly were the ships are, but you aren't sunk either....

Originally Posted by max-peck

Of course - I did not even see that

Feeling a little bit ashamed now

At first glance I was thinking "I forget the names too", then after a minute, "wait, that sub was commanded by Dick O'Kane, and it was sunk by a circle runner...", he must me making a joke...

Then again.....

Barracuda

[max-peck]

Originally Posted by dergrunty

I indeed have duds turned on and even knew about the unreliability of american torpedoes

Apologies for lecturing you on something you already know about
But the US Torpedo Scandal is a bit of a pet peeve of mine
Every time I read about it - even though I know all about it - I still get very angry

Originally Posted by dergrunty

That would have been a fitting end to my career, wasting about 15 torpedoes with misses and at the end sinking myself with one...

And don't you know - that will be the one bloody time the exploder actually works

Originally Posted by BarracudaUAK

At first glance I was thinking "I forget the names too", then after a minute, "wait, that sub was commanded by Dick O'Kane, and it was sunk by a circle runner...", he must me making a joke...

Then again.....

I would love to pretend I was being very clever and joking about not knowing the name of the Boat

The truth is dissapointing

Just plain forgot

Still feel like a bit of a dumbass though