Poland co-responsible for WW2 apparently...According to Russia!

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by darius359au

Just read this news story and it's like "okay...that's a new spin on History"

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-2...ssador/6807594

To be fair to the other side, and without joking, here may be where this one came from:

Originally Posted by Poland Betrayed, P58

At the beginning of July detailed military talks began but they immediately ran up against a serious problem: the key question was whether the Poles would agree to the passage of Soviet troops through Poland. The Poles, fearful that this would be a preliminary to a permanent Soviet occupation rejected this. Beck himself informed his allies that he objected ‘to the passage of Russian troops across Polish territory just as much as that of German troops’.

[Betonov]

The matter may hold some merit, but we can't deny the fact that Poland had an extreme distrust towards the Russians.
And one big part of being a diplomat is knowing when to keep your mouth shut.

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Ah, good old "She dressed sexy, getting raped was partially her fault!"

I said nothing of the sort.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

I said nothing of the sort.

Except you absolutely did.

...it would be entirely irrational not to suggest that the Nazis were responsible for creating the conditions in which such behaviour could occur. So yes, they should be blamed - along with the actual perpetrators.

You 'justified' the rape of someone because the Nazis committed terrible crimes.
The truth is, however, that it doesn't matter how many crimes or gruesome acts the Nazis have committed, there is no justification to rape anyone, not even when she raises her right arm and yells Heil Hitler! right in the Russian soldiers face(s) right before it happens.
So the principle is the same, shoving the responsibility for a crime onto the victim - or any other circumstances - when in the end the sole responsibility for such an action always lies by the perpetrator(s).

There is no shared responsibility.

[August]

Sure there is.

Would those Russian soldiers have been able to rape all those German women if the nazis hadn't started the war?

Would those Russian soldiers have been given such free reign by their command if the Germans hadn't acted even more beastly when they were the victors?

Unless the answers to both questions is no then yes the nazis were partially responsible. Before you loose your mind though just remember that this does not mitigate the Russians guilt at all.

Originally Posted by August

Sure there is.

Would those Russian soldiers have been able to rape all those German women if the nazis hadn't started the war?

Would those Russian soldiers have been given such free reign by their command if the Germans hadn't acted even more beastly when they were the victors?

Unless the answers to both questions is no then yes the nazis were partially responsible. Before you loose your mind though just remember that this does not mitigate the Russians guilt at all.

Exactly. The Soviet forces committed atrocities, and should clearly bear responsibility for them - but so should the German military, who created the conditions under which such behaviour was entirely predictable.

[August]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

Exactly. The Soviet forces committed atrocities, and should clearly bear responsibility for them - but so should the German military, who created the conditions under which such behaviour was entirely predictable.

Yep, just like there can be several people convicted for a single murder the nazis can certainly be also blamed for the whirlwind they sowed.

Originally Posted by August

Sure there is.

Would those Russian soldiers have been able to rape all those German women if the nazis hadn't started the war?

It is not a question of being able - it is a question of right and wrong and that the crimes of the Nazis have nothing to do with anyone raping someone.

Their job was to defeat Nazi Germany - they did that.
Their job was not to rape civilians.
It is as simple as that August (and Andy).
One thing (war, invasion, occupation, ...) does not justify the other.
And by the logic you both apply, you just again underline what I said earlier.

"She dressed sexy, getting raped was partially her fault."
"The Nazis did bad things, their civilians getting raped was partially their fault."

I am uncertain if I can make this any more obvious or clear, so I will simply leave it at that.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by August

Sure there is.

Would those Russian soldiers have been able to rape all those German women if the nazis hadn't started the war?

Would those Russian soldiers have been given such free reign by their command if the Germans hadn't acted even more beastly when they were the victors?

Unless the answers to both questions is no then yes the nazis were partially responsible. Before you loose your mind though just remember that this does not mitigate the Russians guilt at all.

Actually Soviet policy was to prosecute rapists and looters on the spot, as it was bad for morale, health (STDs) and organization of the units. Those who did acquire STDs were considered to be deserters (!) and you know what we did to deserters.

But, yea, "all German women were raped by the soviets" is the old myth that dies slowly.

Originally Posted by ikalugin

But, yea, "all German women were raped by the soviets" is the old myth that dies slowly.

As I just read some western propaganda leaflets:
"Many Russians find all mention of the wartime rapes offensive and they are regularly dismissed as a Western myth in the Russian media."

...and here you are, claiming exactly that.

Personally, I don't care if Russians raped Germans or Italians raped Inuit, or Martians some Venusians - people raped people, for whatever reason and no matter how you look at it, it was a crime and history books don't refer to this particular event as "the rape of Berlin" for no reason.
Yes yes, inb4historyiswrittenbythevictor and as soon as something speaks against anything Russian, it is - of course - a myth, propaganda or whatever kind of lie, not like the glorious Sovi... Russian sources who coincidentally claim the complete opposite, trying to lower the numbers as much as possible, therefor accusing thousands of Women to be lying.

Also, not only German Women raised claims over mass-rapings, some Russian soldiers admitted or reported events like that as well.

"Twenty-two Hoeringstrasse. It's not been burned, just looted, rifled. A moaning by the walls, half muffled: the mother's wounded, half alive. The little daughter's on the mattress, dead. How many have been on it? A platoon, a company perhaps? A girl's been turned into a woman, a woman turned into a corpse. . . . The mother begs, "Soldier, kill me!"
- Solzhenitsyn

"We were young, strong, and four years without women. So we tried to catch German women and ... Ten men raped one girl. There were not enough women; the entire population run from the Soviet Army. So we had to take young, twelve or thirteen year-old. If she cried, we put something into her mouth. We thought it was fun. Now I can not understand how I did it. A boy from a good family... But that was me."
- An army officer

"When we occupied every town, we had first three days for looting and ... [rapes]. That was unofficial of course. But after three days one could be court-martialed for doing this. ... I remember one raped German woman laying naked, with hand grenade between her legs. Now I feel shame, but I did not feel shame back then... Do you think it was easy to forgive [the Germans]? We hated to see their clean undamaged white houses. With roses. I wanted them to suffer. I wanted to see their tears. ... Decades had to pass until I started feeling pity for them."
- A Russian telephone operator

The truth is probably somewhere in between when we want to get close to the real number of rapes,
but the term "rape of Berlin" is for sure not just for dramatic effect and claiming it is just a myth is very disrespectful towards those who had to endure this event.

Don't let your national pride get in the way of the truth, it only hurts your credibility.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Actually Soviet policy was to prosecute rapists and looters on the spot, as it was bad for morale, health (STDs) and organization of the units. Those who did acquire STDs were considered to be deserters (!) and you know what we did to deserters.

How well that policy was enforced is an entirely different story.

[August]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

It is not a question of being able - it is a question of right and wrong and that the crimes of the Nazis have nothing to do with anyone raping someone.

Their job was to defeat Nazi Germany - they did that.
Their job was not to rape civilians.
It is as simple as that August (and Andy).
One thing (war, invasion, occupation, ...) does not justify the other.
And by the logic you both apply, you just again underline what I said earlier.

"She dressed sexy, getting raped was partially her fault."
"The Nazis did bad things, their civilians getting raped was partially their fault."

I am uncertain if I can make this any more obvious or clear, so I will simply leave it at that.

You keep trying to twist what we're saying into something else.

Nobody is trying to justify or minimize the Russians actions one bit. The Russians are no less guilty of their crimes regardless whether we also blame the nazis for creating the chaos that resulted in these situations being able to flourish.

You'll also note that it's nazis that we're talking about, not Germans and certainly not German rape victims. If you think the nazis should be given a pass for creating the chaos and horrors of war you'll not find much support for that theory.

[Betonov]

Should we condemn the rapes: yes
Should we be surprised by them: no

The eastern front was barbarism. How many sovet soldiers came from the occupied areas when they fell back as the Germans advanced and when they retook the area they learned their family was executed to make room rof the german lebensraum. And not only their own family, but your comrades families.

They were turned into animals. Humans have self controls, animals don't.
Nazis on the other hand were not animals. They had method, self control over atrocities. They were monsters.

What would be the the situation if this war wouldn't have been a war of extermination but a WW1 style to force an enemy to yield. Not a war started by monters and making animals.

[ikalugin]

Solzhenitsyn, anon officer, anon telephone operator. They sound like credible witneses. Surely Solzhenitsyn won't ever lie (nor would people make up accounts of anons for political convenience), as he had no zero anti-Soviet bias nor never inflated his own figures of political repression in the USSR.

The eastern front was barbarism. How many sovet soldiers came from the occupied areas when they fell back as the Germans advanced and when they retook the area they learned their family was executed to make room rof the german lebensraum. And not only their own family, but your comrades families.

I think that around 2m people have returned from "irrecoverable" losses (ie taken prisoner, dead and missing) during the course of war.