Attacking a Convoy in Silent Hunter 3

[UKönig]

Originally Posted by Rambler241

Well, no the "ideal approach angle" can't be 90°, now can it? You then say

Abeam of the target as if you are crossing the letter "T" where the short top is the ship course and the long bottom is your torpedo track. Does it make sense now? I told you I am bad at describing things in numbers. The error was mine.
Which means that if the approach is at 90° to the centre of the convoy, by the time you get into range, most of the ships will be to left or right, depending on which side you're attacking from. Apart from that, most convoys have flanking escorts, so at some stage you're likely to have to pass fairly close to one. Not a good start.

Yes exactly why if you get in and are able to make your shots cross the "T" you are lucky indeed. Too bad it's probably what you'll have to rely on while carrying out such a risky move. But that's why you joined the Kriegsmarine in the first place, isn't it.
Around 45° is the only way to do it - maintaining a safe distance from both the leading escort and the flanking escort(s), before commencing your attack. If you aren't ahead, then you have to get ahead, while avoiding detection.
All true
Really? Are you suggesting that less than 1 km reduces your chances of a hit?

Unless this is sarcasm, yes, the closer your barrel is to the target, the less chance the bullet will miss. You can't always get to point blank with a torpedo, and if you are close enough to touch your tubes against her hull, it's probably already resulted in a collision. If you can wait to 500 meters away even against a ship that is zig-zagging, you will still have a decent chance to hit. Take that out to 1.5Km or 3 Km and you can imagine what will happen on your own. These are things I have tried and tested many times over and they never fail. Until they do (for me) I stand by it.

[Zosimus]

Personally I have found that the best way to hit multiple targets is to set yourself between the rows of ships. That way you can fire at a promising target with your fore slavo and another target with your aft. This only works if you're at a 90º angle.

[RJBub1]

This has nothing to do with the convoy subject, however I'm a big fan of your Youtube Channel!

[depthtok33l]

Originally Posted by Zosimus

Personally I have found that the best way to hit multiple targets is to set yourself between the rows of ships. That way you can fire at a promising target with your fore slavo and another target with your aft. This only works if you're at a 90º angle.

Originally Posted by UKönig

Unless this is sarcasm, yes, the closer your barrel is to the target, the less chance the bullet will miss. You can't always get to point blank with a torpedo, and if you are close enough to touch your tubes against her hull, it's probably already resulted in a collision. If you can wait to 500 meters away even against a ship that is zig-zagging, you will still have a decent chance to hit. Take that out to 1.5Km or 3 Km and you can imagine what will happen on your own. These are things I have tried and tested many times over and they never fail. Until they do (for me) I stand by it.

Originally Posted by Rambler241

Well, no the "ideal approach angle" can't be 90°, now can it? You then say

Which means that if the approach is at 90° to the centre of the convoy, by the time you get into range, most of the ships will be to left or right, depending on which side you're attacking from. Apart from that, most convoys have flanking escorts, so at some stage you're likely to have to pass fairly close to one. Not a good start.

Around 45° is the only way to do it - maintaining a safe distance from both the leading escort and the flanking escort(s), before commencing your attack. If you aren't ahead, then you have to get ahead, while avoiding detection.

Really? Are you suggesting that less than 1 km reduces your chances of a hit?

Come on guys let's keep this a friendly conversation.

Originally Posted by RJBub1

This has nothing to do with the convoy subject, however I'm a big fan of your Youtube Channel!

Thanks buddy, really appreciate it!

[UKönig]

Not to worry, I am all about friendly conversation.
Besides, I've dealt with some really nasty people and some really nasty situations, so it takes a lot more than name calling or telling me I'm stupid and don't know what I'm saying to ruffle *my* feathers.
Put simply, the closer you are to your target the less chance you will miss it, and that is a true statement, whether your weapon is a torpedo, a bullet, or even a knife. No offense taken or assumed on my part.

[Johnners]

Hi. I do remember seeing a video by OLC showing his method for attacking a convoy using his gui mod which I found helpful but I can't remember where I saw it - it was a few years ago and I haven't been able to find it in the downloads section (was actually looking for myself a week or so back). Perhaps someone's recall is better than mine and may be able to help?

[GJO]

Originally Posted by Zosimus

Personally I have found that the best way to hit multiple targets is to set yourself between the rows of ships. That way you can fire at a promising target with your fore slavo and another target with your aft. This only works if you're at a 90º angle.

This is the only way to get the really juicy targets although not necessarily at 90 degrees. I prefer to get on a nearly parallel course as close to the centre of the convoy as possible - this makes it very easy to get an accurate measure of the convoy's speed - easy enough in the early years (even with a night attack on the surface) - even in later years it is possible to get into the middle of a slow convoy and play havoc.

After 1940 with armed merchants all around, surface attacks become very risky so this method is best used with a submerged attack on slow convoys and even then, too much time spent travelling with the periscope up or at anything faster than 1 Kt will attract the early attention of the escorts.

I rarely fire a torpedoe from within a convoy unless I am on a nearly parallel couse to the target at a distance of between 450 and 500 Metres - I have found that, after much practice, I can get the torpedoes to run at approximately 90 degrees to my course and score a crippling hit on the target. I know some regard this as 'firing from the hip' but I believe many of the more succseful WWII commanders used similar intuitive methods. In other words, many of their deliberations as to distance would have been the result of an inspired guess based on knowledge and experience.

It is essential to get the torpedoes out fast and then escape as quickly as possible - especially in the later years. Those targets that fail to sink are often crippled and can be found later well behind the main convoy to be finished off when the tubes have been reloaded.

[Zosimus]

That's great. So you can fire the torpedoes out the front tubes, have them curve a bit, and hit the ships.

But this doesn't let you use the aft tubes.

[Andrakis]

I've noticed that if you are firing for multiple targets in a convoy, that basing your firing order on the impact time can help mitigate the dodging effect.

That is to say. My further targets will have torpedoes fired at maximum speed, closer targets at slow. The ideal situation is having all of your volleys striking as simultaneously as possible.

That's easier said than done, however.

[GJO]

Originally Posted by Zosimus

That's great. So you can fire the torpedoes out the front tubes, have them curve a bit, and hit the ships.

But this doesn't let you use the aft tubes.

Yes that is how it was done in real life - the torpedoes are steered by a giro device and once set it will keep the torpedo on a straight course - AFAIK the giros were adjusted by the crew in the torpedo compartment as soon as the officer read out the calculated settings. If the torpedoes course is set to 90 degrees from the subs course, then the torpedo will follow a tight curve until the giro senses that it is going in the right direction. It works with all torpedoes including those in the stern tube(s) - in the game, I haven'y tried setting them up to run at an angle greater than 90 degrees but I can confirm that, at that angle they run nicely.

[GJO]

Don't set the torpedo speed too fast when the targets are within 500 metres!

I have had a few that have failed to detonate and my guess is that the game emulates real life in that each torp needs time to arm itself.

[Pisces]

There is also a bug with the torpedo speed settings when switching between a type 1 and type 2 torpedo. The TDC doesn't update the firing solution for the torpedo that has a different speed setting, so it goes the wrong way. Be mindfull of that and force the speed setting if you switch between types.

[Zosimus]

Originally Posted by GJO

Yes that is how it was done in real life - the torpedoes are steered by a giro device and once set it will keep the torpedo on a straight course - AFAIK the giros were adjusted by the crew in the torpedo compartment as soon as the officer read out the calculated settings. If the torpedoes course is set to 90 degrees from the subs course, then the torpedo will follow a tight curve until the giro senses that it is going in the right direction. It works with all torpedoes including those in the stern tube(s) - in the game, I haven'y tried setting them up to run at an angle greater than 90 degrees but I can confirm that, at that angle they run nicely.

Well, maybe you haven't explained yourself well, but I just don't see it.

Okay, you're inside the convoy between two rows and running parallel. You claim this lets you figure the speed of the convoy nicely. I say nonsense. If the convoy is going at 7 knots and you're going at 1 knot, then you have no way of "pacing" the convoy. You would need to go at 7 knots to pace a convoy going 7 knots. Whatever method you use to figure out its speed would work equally well at a 90º angle.

Second, I don't doubt that your self-admitted "shooting from the hip" works fine with the fore tubes. You have a ship roughly abreast of you, and you fire a torpedo (or two) out the fore tubes. The torpedoes race ahead of you while turning and smack the ship broadside. Perfect.

However, your aft tubes will be racing backward while the target is plodding foreward. That's going to be a problem. How exactly do you handle that? I suppose you must fire at ships that are substantially behind you. Sure, that's easy to figure out by just hitting F6 and looking at the torpedo trajectory and thinking, "That looks perfect." I wonder, however, whether the real u-boat commanders had F6 screens.

Finally, 90º shots have an advantage that parallel shots don't – it makes it far easier to hide under the cargo ships. Let's assume that you've worked your way into a big convoy and you see juicy targets fore and aft. You can easily fire a salvo at the fore, a salvo at the aft (or vice versa) and time them to hit at the same time. As you are waiting for them to hit, you can find another target and order your helm to turn to that angle.

Once the torpedoes hit, the convoy will react. Half of the time the third target will zig in a way that puts it broadside to you. If that happens, you can salvo that one too, and dive. If not, just dive anyway and kick up the speed. At this point you can easily position yourself under the row of ships as you go deep. The destroyers will need to wait till the ships get out of the way before depth charging. That will give you precious minutes you need to hit 200+ meters deep.

If the weather is decently bad, the destroyers will find it impossible to pick you up with sonar. You easily escape and go out and around to do it again.

[GJO]

Originally Posted by Zosimus

Well, maybe you haven't explained yourself well, but I just don't see it.

Okay, you're inside the convoy between two rows and running parallel. You claim this lets you figure the speed of the convoy nicely. I say nonsense. If the convoy is going at 7 knots and you're going at 1 knot, then you have no way of "pacing" the convoy. You would need to go at 7 knots to pace a convoy going 7 knots. Whatever method you use to figure out its speed would work equally well at a 90º angle.

Second, I don't doubt that your self-admitted "shooting from the hip" works fine with the fore tubes. You have a ship roughly abreast of you, and you fire a torpedo (or two) out the fore tubes. The torpedoes race ahead of you while turning and smack the ship broadside. Perfect.

However, your aft tubes will be racing backward while the target is plodding foreward. That's going to be a problem. How exactly do you handle that? I suppose you must fire at ships that are substantially behind you. Sure, that's easy to figure out by just hitting F6 and looking at the torpedo trajectory and thinking, "That looks perfect." I wonder, however, whether the real u-boat commanders had F6 screens.

Finally, 90º shots have an advantage that parallel shots don't – it makes it far easier to hide under the cargo ships. Let's assume that you've worked your way into a big convoy and you see juicy targets fore and aft. You can easily fire a salvo at the fore, a salvo at the aft (or vice versa) and time them to hit at the same time. As you are waiting for them to hit, you can find another target and order your helm to turn to that angle.

Once the torpedoes hit, the convoy will react. Half of the time the third target will zig in a way that puts it broadside to you. If that happens, you can salvo that one too, and dive. If not, just dive anyway and kick up the speed. At this point you can easily position yourself under the row of ships as you go deep. The destroyers will need to wait till the ships get out of the way before depth charging. That will give you precious minutes you need to hit 200+ meters deep.

If the weather is decently bad, the destroyers will find it impossible to pick you up with sonar. You easily escape and go out and around to do it again.

That is all correct - when running approximately parallel, I find it very easy to judge the speed of adjacent targets - it is a bit like walking in a crowd - they are either slightly faster or slightly slower and with slow convoys you can often adjust your own speed to match theirs - the other advantage is that whilst on a parallel course there is more time available to make sure that all is correct. Obviously the stern tubes could only be used for a target that is astern of the 90 degree line - a succesful method here is to discharge the bow tubes first then reduce speed and fire the stern tubes as the target comes into the intended path of the torpedo. I am not sure that it is always easy to escape - I play GWX and the escorts with this mod are very good at locating submarines. I have found that the most effective means of escape is to change direction and then run silently away going as deep as possible . . .

[GT182]

Originally Posted by Zosimus

That's great. So you can fire the torpedoes out the front tubes, have them curve a bit, and hit the ships.

But this doesn't let you use the aft tubes.

Yes you can use the aft tubes. Make it quick to pick up a target and fire off a torpedo. If you have a Type IX sub you'll have two of them to fire. Once the tubes are clear dive fast, go silent, and get out of there. Don't even think of reloading while you're being hunted.

The convoy ships and explosions will mask your departure for a bit. But when the escorts start their hunt.... go deep, go silent, and stay silent. They will give up and leave but it might not be for a long long time.

I'm not sure if doing a game "Save" while submerged is ok now, but it used to be you wanted to be on the surface to do a Save.