Radar questions

[Rockin Robbins]

You have to separate hindsight from the view in the jungle. O'Kane certainly used his radar during attacks and for making setups as the resulting accuracy was deemed a slam dunk. Hence his statement that amounted to "my radar is broke and now I won't sink diddly squat."

The only difference was that O'Kane valued visual searches because they were apparently much more effective than in the game with high periscope extending the horizon (not in the game) and much better visual acuity than we have in the game. Even Fluckey talks about visually observing airplanes in complete safety for several minutes before a decision to continue as is or to dive. We don't have a true balance in the game and have to be careful about our judgments.

So O'Kane, before he made contact, wanted complete anonymity and ignorance on the part of the enemy, even at the cost of information on his side. Enright and Fluckey seem to be more in favor of giving a little to get a lot. But you can understand that superstition, hunch and general paranoia where your life is at stake if you're wrong would tend to trump any dispassionate calculation of advantage and odds. And you also have to factor in that the difference between the captains we discuss and the losers finding no targets was due to the aggressiveness and tolerance for danger that these skippers were willing to tolerate, in contrast to those who lurked below the surface all day and then ran around at night with half charged batteries and not fully prepared to fight. These guys weren't afraid to intimidate the enemy. And they weren't afraid to be seen by an aircraft--that's why they spent so much time on the surface. They were very willing to trade a little danger for finding more targets. I'll bet O'Kane figured out how much of the time he could leave the radar off and still not miss any targets in his search area. These guys weren't the kind to hide to survive.

The important thing is that once the great skippers were in action they used the radar to its full advantage. And the action starts with first detection by the enemy, whether it be seeing a periscope, detecting a radar signal, or hearing a very loud BOOM.

But with hindsight it should be very clear to everyone that just leaving the radar on will sink more targets than any other strategy. They can't fix your position and train any weapons from your radar signal. But your radar makes your weapons more than twice as deadly. In real life, the use of radar and its detection by the Japanese did strike fear and cause mistakes on their part because of its potent intimidation factor. In war, you should be something of a bully. Fair play is for dead people.

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

In real life, the use of radar and its detection by the Japanese did strike fear and cause mistakes on their part because of its potent intimidation factor. In war, you should be something of a bully. Fair play is for dead people.

I have reread both O'Kane and Fluckey and I can not find a single example of an attack where either of these very aggressive skippers intentionally used radar emissions to "spook" the enemy in the way that you describe. And you have to admit that Fluckey, had he done so, could be counted on to have mentioned the fact. Shinano-Archerfish was a serendipitous occurrence, not a deliberate tactic. It happened once, and the details weren't available until after the war. (BTW, if you have a first-person account of such intentional use in WW2 - by anyone - I'd really like to read it. Thanks.)

O'Kane, on the other hand, repeatedly stresses the importance, to him, of maintaining the advantage of stealth. His comments on the need for EMSEC (as it would now be called) are far more extensive than the few I quoted in my previous post. Concealment, stealth, invisibility (call it whatever you wish) is critical to the submarine's mission. If it were not, you could build a far more efficient surface torpedo platform. Stealth is both an offensive and a defensive advantage. As anyone who has ever played a sibsim knows, you can't hunt effectively while being hunted. Once you make the enemy aware of your presence, he has a whole arsenal of tools to prevent you from using your offensive weapons effectively. So, instead of making your presence known, so as to maybe cause the enemy to make a mistake, it is better (in O'Kane's judgment and FWIW, I agree) to keep him completely unaware of your presence until the moment of attack. An alert, combat-ready enemy may spook and make a mistake, or he may not, and, if he doesn't, he knows you are around and is actively trying to find and neutralize you. An enemy who doesn't think there is a hostile force anywhere nearby is less alert and not actively trying to locate and deal with you. This is the essence of stealth tactics, which are most definitely not purely defensive.

As for striking fear in the enemy, what is more fearsome than the sudden enormous explosion of a torpedo which strikes without warning when everyone on board is feeling safe and unaware of an enemy anywhere nearby? Or as O'Kane put it:

"Again, we had one objective: To make our presence known only by our torpedo detonations."

But with hindsight it should be very clear to everyone that just leaving the radar on will sink more targets than any other strategy.

Hindsight is something none of us can avoid. Trying to minimize the element of hindsight was Ducimus' rationale for creating the "alternative history" which is TMO. But that doesn't mean that we have to embrace the knowledge that hindsight gives us and play the game with an aggressiveness beyond that of the boldest RL skippers, just because we "know" the historical truth. There is a quote which I am fond of offering on this forum:

"Realism isn't about the settings. It's about how you play the game." - Rockin' Robbins

[merc4ulfate]

""I'm here and you have no idea what I'm up to" is the most intimidating message you can send the enemy. People under pressure make mistakes and there's no better way to put the pressure on. Once you know they detected you maybe it would be even more intimidation if you turned it off for awhile. "Did he submerge? Was it even real? Is my detection equipment faulty?......" (In a perfect world that's when the BOOMs come)"

Yeah this is me here sometimes.

1944. I just ran smack into a huge Task Force. Water depth is 600 feet. They had at least 11 destroyers, 4 battleships, 8 light and heavy cruisers and 8 aircraft carriers of varying classes. The escorts were more towards the rear and I let them have it from 3000 yards. I sank 4 out of the 8 carriers and two destroyers. In the whole 45 minute battle I fired all but 6 fish and only once dove to avoid being struck by a heavy cruiser to a depth of 110 feet then came back up to continue the attack.

1600 sun is shining and not a cloud in the sky. I was bombed by no less than 6 air craft who couldn't hit a thing. 35 minutes into the battle the TF began moving on out of my range and I had to dive to 520 feet to avoid the destroyers who had finally made it over to attack me. Sustained minor flooding and damage that was quickly repaired.

After they left the area I found a freighter and threw three cuties at him two hit but he left and I didnt feel like wasting the other 3 fish or a surface face off.

Headed to Saipan which had just fallen and on my way came across another huge Task Force. They were spread out for miles and there is no way knowing all of the ships. I was at periscope depth all ahead flank and was never heard by any of them they were so spread out. By the time I got into position and allowed one to come towards me I put one out of three fish into another carrier.

Docked at Saipan and very much enjoyed that patrol.

I think I made my presence known and had first spotted them with radar and kept the radar on until they were within 9 nm then I went to periscope depth.

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[BigWalleye]

Gosh! That sounds so...real!

[Rockin Robbins]

Those convoys fly by at 20 knots. Good job of getting in close enough to let 'em know we don't like 'em playing on OUR LAKE. The worst thing is seeing a convoy and knowing there's no way to get from here to there.

[ColonelSandersLite]

Yeah, did some further research. The Japanese threw the E27 radar detector, often paired with the model 3 on everything from subs to carriers. The E27 was definitely capable of determining direction.

Might want to look here from page 333 to 335:
https://books.google.com/books?id=dP...ceiver&f=false


Historical facts aside. Every sensor is directional in the game whether it should be or not. For example, the SD radar is not directional, but still gives bearing data. It's certainly just a game engine limitation.

[TorpX]

Nice find there.

Very interesting.

[ColonelSandersLite]

Yeah, been reading some of that book preview. I *really* want a copy now. Sadly, it's price point puts it out of my range in the immediate sense. Maybe soon though.