Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

Derp, ment to write next to russia...damn brainfart
Edit: According to the Estonian ambassador to the Ukraine Sulev Kannike it will e decided tomorrow if they declare a a state of war or not.
http://uudised.err.ee/v/valismaa/b12...f-5e3a33430c9a
Source is in estonian, I don't have the time to translate it in its entirey just now, maybe in a few hours.

Careful, buddy, that could be prophesy.

Oh, and after reading up on the overthrow of the Russian backed PM, it does say that he was voted out by Parliment, right?

You know, it really is a shame the US and Europe didn't do a better job of bringing Putin and Russia into the fold. We did make an effort, we brought them into the G8, we had joint exercises, we sent them aid, and merged our space programs, but I guess it wasn't enough. I know there was a lot of psychological scarring from the implosion of the USSR and collapse of Communism (imagine 70 years of brainwashing a society into living a lie). Does the US want to invade Russia? Of course not. Europe? Hardly. It's too bad there's so much unfounded suspicion and distrust.

[August]

Originally Posted by CCIP

What if the issue is cloudy by its nature? Why the desire for black-and-white solutions in what's clearly and provably a very grey picture?

Well what's not grey is that one protagonist in this civil war is being supplied with the means to wage that war and the other is not. I would gladly oppose giving the Ukrainians the means to defend themselves if the other side would be cut off as well but that isn't going to happen now is it.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by August

Well what's not grey is that one protagonist in this civil war is being supplied with the means to wage that war and the other is not. I would gladly oppose giving the Ukrainians the means to defend themselves if the other side would be cut off as well but that isn't going to happen now is it.

Russians are always warning the west about escalating, but.........aren't they the ones that have kept escalating the conflict for the past year?!!?

[Rockstar]

I'm confused, what makes those fighters for freedom and democracy of the Arab Spring that most here cheered on. So different from those nasty old Putin backed separatists trying to overthrow the Ukrainian government?


Also didnt the west make promises not to expand NATO into eastern europe in order to get at and dismantle old Soviet Nukes? Yet here NATO is throughout Eastern Europe and now looking to place fighter bases 300 miles from Moscow. Didn't the west help oust the old Ukranian President for the current one. We keep poking and poking like somehow we have the answer how everyone should live. Obviously there are former Russians in Ukraine who would rather be a part of Russia why dont we support that like we supported 'people's right to choose' in the Arab Spring?

I would say that many here are from an era when the Red Menace was to be feared and done away with. Is it that way of thinking which still contributes to how we look at what Russia is allegedly doing now? Or is it just too complicated for me to understand.

Im done rambling, and no I'm not pro anything.

[August]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Russians are always warning the west about escalating, but.........aren't they the ones that have kept escalating the conflict for the past year?!!?

Yep. But we're supposed to ignore that. Basically they're saying "We're gonna continue to do as we please with this crappy little border country and if you dare try and help them resist us then we're gonna beat them up even worse."

I'm thinking doing nothing is probably exactly what we'll end up doing.

[ikalugin]

Well, what is the justification for arming Ukraine (actually that process was ongoing for a while now, for example with Romanian artillery munitions I think)? They were (before the war) one of the largest weapon exporters, they certainly have enough equipment around to fight that war. The problem is within the structural deficiencies, so sending in instructors and applying political pressure to conduct a reform (and uphold Minsk agreements while you are at it) Is a far better option.

As to the justification provided by the supporters (in the US) of supplying defensive lethal arms to Ukraine, I find it retarded not only in military-political sense (as it would provide basis for further escalation rather than freezing the conflict), but in purely military sense.
For example what is the point in supplying air defense systems to Ukraine if it already has a decent air defense network and neither side really uses air power? How would Javelin ATGMs aid the loyalists if there are no armored concentrations rolling around and the main combat arm used by both sides is artillery?
Now, sending the artillery recce systems (such as CB radars, but not the high end UAVs, as those would get ripped by the SAMs and high power ECM in the area) sort of does make sense, except that Ukraine already lost 2/3 of such systems provided due to incompetence and lack of other supporting systems (such as proper communications, and this problem is not solved by just giving them secure radios).

[ikalugin]

Hence why some view this move as intentional escalation of conflict by the US, probably to undermine the European attempts at peace making (which is consistent with the view that US initiated the conflict in the first place by installing new regime in Kiev to isolate and humiliate Russia).

I do understand however that this could be based on the need of US to fulfil some sort of internal political objectives (such as protection "good" Ukraine against "evill" Russia), as there legal binding obligation on US to do anything of the sort.

[Dowly]

@Bilge_Rat, seeing the alleged T-72B3 through not so beer soaked eyes, I agree.
That appears to be SOSNA-U sitting on top of the tank.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Dowly

@Bilge_Rat, seeing the alleged T-72B3 through not so beer soaked eyes, I agree.
That appears to be SOSNA-U sitting on top of the tank.

Yes, after I have viewed the video in high resolution it does appear to be the B3s, though only a platoon of them. Considering how first batch of Armatas is being transfered to the Armed Forces this month, we would probably see more B3s in spring.

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

You know, it really is a shame the US and Europe didn't do a better job of bringing Putin and Russia into the fold. We did make an effort, we brought them into the G8, we had joint exercises, we sent them aid, and merged our space programs, but I guess it wasn't enough. I know there was a lot of psychological scarring from the implosion of the USSR and collapse of Communism (imagine 70 years of brainwashing a society into living a lie). Does the US want to invade Russia? Of course not. Europe? Hardly. It's too bad there's so much unfounded suspicion and distrust.

Well, it isn't something that will be gone after just 20 years and it counts for both sides too much of the generation when lies, distrust and suspicion played a big part during the cold war is still in the back of their minds and as long they occupy positions of power or influence the stance towards aren't as they should be and may be giving of a wrong signal. US and Europe isn't planning to invade Russia, it never was our intention to begin with as we kept a stance to prepare of the invasion comming from the East which was NATO's primary purpose. That still is the same if you give of the wrong signal to let former Warsaw pact countries join it so shortly after collapse of the USSR. Not that I would say they never should join NATO but I think it would've been better if it where delayed for a generation to pass before it did.

What I still find hard to not get mad about is when I see our Politicians talk about Putin and the Russians is how they can keep a straight face whilst if you look what we have done over the last few years trying to police the world we've been playing the same dirrty game as the Russians are doing now only ofcourse we don't really hide it because we make ourselfs believe we do the right thing and one glance at the Middle East...well I wouldn't say I would be proud of it what we've done over there

[Oberon]

Meanwhile two Bears have been sniffing around Cornwall. It's a nice place, if they want to go there on holiday though I'd wait a few more months, it tends to be rather wet in winter.

Here's a video of another intercept, but this time from the Bear:
http://tvzvezda.ru/news/vstrane_i_mi...81902-tr6s.htm

Aaand, our Defence Secretary is angling for more money from the government:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31528981

[ikalugin]

If they are recon variants - I can't blame them, North is horrible weather wise, especially during winter.

[Oberon]

One thing that I do ponder though, I mean think of it this way. Ukraine is Russia's Cuba. So...well, what is the difference between what Russia is doing in the Ukraine now, and what the US has spent the last forty or so years doing in Cuba?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

If they are recon variants - I can't blame them, North is horrible weather wise, especially during winter.

Polar bears do migrate, I suppose.

[Betonov]

Waste of fuel if you ask me.
I say that to both sides.