beginner question on how to increase the target confidence level

[tirta]

Hi Guys,

I am a beginner to DW, since my last modern sub sim is janes 688,
and now I am rather overwhelmed with the complexity of DW.

Can somebody let me know how to increase the target confidence level to high?
I am playing with novice default setting with all autocrew on.
I am trying ASUW quick mission with 688,
my speed is 5 and my depth is above thermal layer,
I have changing courses several times to improve TMA,
however this does not seem to improve target confidence,
what did I do wrong?

How is the best way to learn this sim?
Is there any good tutorial?
Do you have any tips / guides for beginner?
Please advise.

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by tirta

Can somebody let me know how to increase the target confidence level to high?

I have changing courses several times to improve TMA,
however this does not seem to improve target confidence,
what did I do wrong?

The game/autocrew wil not tocuh the "Target Confidence" value of a contact.
It is there just for your exclusive use as a "reminder" of YOUR confidence about a target ID (not about its TMA solution quality).

So you are the one that have to set it accordingly to your confidence about target ID. The usual convention AFAIK is:
- Low if more than 2 possible IDs could match the contact.
- Med if exactly 2 possible IDs could match the contact.
- High if exactly 1 ID match the contact(you have IDed your contact).

[tirta]

thanks for the reply, banryu79.

so what is the easiest way to ID the target?
with sonar or with periscope?

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by tirta

thanks for the reply, banryu79.

so what is the easiest way to ID the target?
with sonar or with periscope?

Define "easiest way to ID a target" and I will able to respond
If your contact is a subsurface platform you cannot use the periscope to ID it, of course, nor his electronic emmission

Let's say it is a surface platform.
Which sensor array you use to ID it depends by the tactical situation you have in a given moment. Without discussionf tactical opportunieties, let's say the obvious things:

Periscope - if in range and you can see it you can take a photo with the scope, and then you can manipulate (AOB) and compare it with the patform database and find its class.

ESM - if the platform is emitting and you raise your ESM antenna you instantly have the exact bearing and its ID. The electronic signature is unique so no need to do any guesswork at all.

Sonar - if you can hear the patform on narrowband you can examine its acoustic signature. Depending on how well you hear it (range, acoustic conditions, strenght of signal) you will pick up one, two or more frequency components of its acoustic signature.
Then you can compare it (partial signature) with the acoustinc signature database and find how many profiles can match it. Many profiles? Clearly you have to do more guesswork/investigation/improve the signal... Two profiles only? You have a good ID estimation (Med confidence) and with an elimination process you can get just... One profile? High confidence, you know who they are.

Obviusly, the "sonar option" is not an instant "take away" as the Periscope or ESM are... so it requires more work on your part. For example: if you have intelligence data (info given to you in your mission briefing or in-mission communications) about it you can use it to eliminate some possibilities... If you can hear him on broadband you can use DEMON to obtain more info and again, eliminate some possibilities... and so on.


This is because in the vanilla game, many acoustic signatures are very similar to each other, and in order to uniquely ID a platform from its acoustic signature you have to pick up all its frequency components. I play with the LAWMI mod (that I strongly raccomend if one is interest in "realism"), and in this case the acoustic signature are "more" unique so usually I have to do less guesswork to isolate the candidate profiles to ID my contacs.

[FPSchazly]

Originally Posted by banryu79

Define "easiest way to ID a target" and I will able to respond
If your contact is a subsurface platform you cannot use the periscope to ID it, of course, nor his electronic emmission

Let's say it is a surface platform.
Which sensor array you use to ID it depends by the tactical situation you have in a given moment. Without discussionf tactical opportunieties, let's say the obvious things:

Periscope - if in range and you can see it you can take a photo with the scope, and then you can manipulate (AOB) and compare it with the patform database and find its class.

ESM - if the platform is emitting and you raise your ESM antenna you instantly have the exact bearing and its ID. The electronic signature is unique so no need to do any guesswork at all.

Sonar - if you can hear the patform on narrowband you can examine its acoustic signature. Depending on how well you hear it (range, acoustic conditions, strenght of signal) you will pick up one, two or more frequency components of its acoustic signature.
Then you can compare it (partial signature) with the acoustinc signature database and find how many profiles can match it. Many profiles? Clearly you have to do more guesswork/investigation/improve the signal... Two profiles only? You have a good ID estimation (Med confidence) and with an elimination process you can get just... One profile? High confidence, you know who they are.

Obviusly, the "sonar option" is not an instant "take away" as the Periscope or ESM are... so it requires more work on your part. For example: if you have intelligence data (info given to you in your mission briefing or in-mission communications) about it you can use it to eliminate some possibilities... If you can hear him on broadband you can use DEMON to obtain more info and again, eliminate some possibilities... and so on.


This is because in the vanilla game, many acoustic signatures are very similar to each other, and in order to uniquely ID a platform from its acoustic signature you have to pick up all its frequency components. I play with the LAWMI mod (that I strongly raccomend if one is interest in "realism"), and in this case the acoustic signature are "more" unique so usually I have to do less guesswork to isolate the candidate profiles to ID my contacs.

All great info, well done!

If you're close enough to a contact, you might be able to pick them up on both the towed array and the spherical/cylindrical. The towed array is much better at detecing low frequencies and the cylindrical is better at the high frequencies. So, using those two sensors, and assuming you're close enough, that's how you can pretty much nail down what a contact is with sonar.

However, this method can get tricky if there are a lot of contacts on your sonar as it can be difficult to tell if you're looking at one or multiple tracks on sonar between the towed and the spherical. This is because the towed and spherical are in physically different locations so they'll have different bearings to the contact.

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by FPSchazly

However, this method can get tricky if there are a lot of contacts on your sonar as it can be difficult to tell if you're looking at one or multiple tracks on sonar between the towed and the spherical. This is because the towed and spherical are in physically different locations so they'll have different bearings to the contact.

Mmm... I didn't thought about it (and didn't know it or read it before)
I'm not sure to have understand you well... Let's try with an example.
We are on course 000 and there is (Truth on) a single surface platform at general bearing 75... (Truth off now) and we pick it up on the towed array and also on the spherical array. Well, are you teling that we are picking it up in two sligthly different bearings (with respect to the two different sonar arrays)?

(Forgive me if the choosen 75° bearing is misleading because it doesn't fall inside the scanning range of one of the two sonsar array, I do not remeber the correct ranges ATM).

[FPSchazly]

Originally Posted by banryu79

Mmm... I didn't thought about it (and didn't know it or read it before)
I'm not sure to have understand you well... Let's try with an example.
We are on course 000 and there is (Truth on) a single surface platform at general bearing 75... (Truth off now) and we pick it up on the towed array and also on the spherical array. Well, are you teling that we are picking it up in two sligthly different bearings (with respect to the two different sonar arrays)?

(Forgive me if the choosen 75° bearing is misleading because it doesn't fall inside the scanning range of one of the two sonsar array, I do not remeber the correct ranges ATM).

I'm pretty sure that bearing is out of the baffles for both arrays.

But, yes! If you classify the same contact with the different arrays, you will have slightly different bearings. Obviously at closer ranges this difference will be more pronounced. Also at closer ranges, you can use this difference in bearings to give you a loose approximation of range to target. If you zoom in really close to your ownship on the navmap, you will see that the lines of bearing from the towed and the spherical/cylindrical originate from different points.

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by FPSchazly

If you zoom in really close to your ownship on the navmap, you will see that the lines of bearing from the towed and the spherical/cylindrical originate from different points.

Five minutes after posting my last message and disconnetting from the internet I re-thought about it, remebered that the towed array is "very long" and layed behind the platform and finally I realized that means of course there is an offset between the two sensor arrays!

Thanks for the explanation, FPSchazly

[tirta]

@banryu79
Thanks for the explanation.
By raising ESM antenna, does it make my sub easier to detect?

I am not familiar with LWAMI mods,
does it make the game harder or easier to play?
How is it compared to dwx 1.38?



@FPSchazly
Wow, you have lots of interesting dw videos on youtube.
Thanks for uploading all of them.
I am going to start watching your tutorials first.

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by tirta

@banryu79
Thanks for the explanation.
By raising ESM antenna, does it make my sub easier to detect?

You are welcome, tirta.
Well, try to think about it: raising your esm antenna or your periscope out of the water surface what kind of consequences could have? The most obvious ones are that they could be detected by radar, for example.

Then, if you think more about it you could realize that in order to stick the antenna/radar/periscope out of the water you first need to take your sub very near the water surface... If the weather is good, in daylight hours, someone on an airplane/helo could see the sub silhouette... (I do not know if this is modeled in DW but I like to think in this way... ).

And that's more: coming to shallow waters could means that you are (for example) forced to come above the layer (if there is one) if you were running under it with all the consequences of the case.

Another consideration: in daylight hours periscope/esm could be detected visually, too.
So it is more risky to stick them out then during nighttime.

If they will be detected or not depends on many factors, like the weather(clear/rough sea), range to nearest enemy platform, how long you keep them out in plain view and so on...

As you understand, using them can get you an almost instant ID of a surface contact but it also brings home some risks. So, it is your job as a skipper to weight the risks/benefits aspects and factor them into your current tactical situation to come to a conclusion about what to do or don't do

Originally Posted by tirta

@banryu79
I am not familiar with LWAMI mods,
does it make the game harder or easier to play?
How is it compared to dwx 1.38?

I do not know if LWAMI make the game "easier" or "harder"... I have a too little experience with the game to judge anything... I just played a couple of missions, currently I'm more concentrated playing SHIII and I'll dive (no pun intended) into DW somewhere in the future.

But I can tell you that my IMPRESSION is that LWAMI make the gameplay quite different from vanilla DW. Mostly because it improves (very much, IMO) it's acustic model both in the general and in the specific platform sense. The overall improvements are too many to list them here; if you are really intrested you should download the mod itself an read the detailed and comprehensive manual inside it.
Even if you will not use it, it is intresting reading (to know the limitation of vanilla DW).

I know LAWMI also improve the doctrine files, and in doing this it corrects some quirks and minor bugs of the AI behaviour.

[FPSchazly]

Originally Posted by tirta

@banryu79
@FPSchazly
Wow, you have lots of interesting dw videos on youtube.
Thanks for uploading all of them.
I am going to start watching your tutorials first.

Thanks! I hope you enjoy

Originally Posted by banryu79

You are welcome, tirta.
Well, try to think about it: raising your esm antenna or your periscope out of the water surface what kind of consequences could have? The most obvious ones are that they could be detected by radar, for example.

Then, if you think more about it you could realize that in order to stick the antenna/radar/periscope out of the water you first need to take your sub very near the water surface... If the weather is good, in daylight hours, someone on an airplane/helo could see the sub silhouette... (I do not know if this is modeled in DW but I like to think in this way... ).

And that's more: coming to shallow waters could means that you are (for example) forced to come above the layer (if there is one) if you were running under it with all the consequences of the case.

Another consideration: in daylight hours periscope/esm could be detected visually, too.
So it is more risky to stick them out then during nighttime.

If they will be detected or not depends on many factors, like the weather(clear/rough sea), range to nearest enemy platform, how long you keep them out in plain view and so on...

As you understand, using them can get you an almost instant ID of a surface contact but it also brings home some risks. So, it is your job as a skipper to weight the risks/benefits aspects and factor them into your current tactical situation to come to a conclusion about what to do or don't do

Yeah, I dunno if these things make a difference, either. I feel like someone might be able to get a visual track on a periscope but I don't think I've ever experienced a mast being detected by radar. Either way, I do try and play with respect to the real-life considerations you listed just to make it more fun and interesting

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by FPSchazly

Yeah, I dunno if these things make a difference, either. I feel like someone might be able to get a visual track on a periscope but I don't think I've ever experienced a mast being detected by radar. Either way, I do try and play with respect to the real-life considerations you listed just to make it more fun and interesting

Indeed. I remeber that I have found a post in a thread in the DW section of this forum where I red that periscope/esm/masts are not visually detectable...
But who cares? *I* think they are and play accordingly.

However, I also remember that there is (in the game) a "real" adverse consequence about running your submarine with one or more mast raised, something along the line of generating more noise...

[tirta]

Thanks for all the information, banryu79 & FPSchazly.
I learn a lot by reading your replies.

I have just found out that seawolf and 688 have 2 towed arrays.
Do I need to use both of them or one is enough?

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by tirta

I have just found out that seawolf and 688 have 2 towed arrays.
Do I need to use both of them or one is enough?

Don't know about the SeaWolf, I have always used the 688(i) as a platform, till now.

I cannot speak for stock DW, as I play with LWAMI.
In the 688 the two TA are different: one (don't remember if port or starboard) is the "thin" array the other the "broad" one.

The "thin" array is "more sensible" and that means it could potentially detect contacts at greater range and it will wash out at a lower speed than the "broad" one. So the choice of which one to listent to in a given moment depends on the tactical situation at hand. You can stream both of them, if you want, and then switch to the choosen one in the "navigation" screen before going to the broadband/narrowband TA screen.

[FPSchazly]

Originally Posted by banryu79

Don't know about the SeaWolf, I have always used the 688(i) as a platform, till now.

I cannot speak for stock DW, as I play with LWAMI.
In the 688 the two TA are different: one (don't remember if port or starboard) is the "thin" array the other the "broad" one.

The "thin" array is "more sensible" and that means it could potentially detect contacts at greater range and it will wash out at a lower speed than the "broad" one. So the choice of which one to listent to in a given moment depends on the tactical situation at hand. You can stream both of them, if you want, and then switch to the choosen one in the "navigation" screen before going to the broadband/narrowband TA screen.

OK, that might be different in LWAMI. In stock DW, both 688I toweds are the same and it's the Seawolf that has the 'thin' and 'thick' towed arrays.

In that case, in stock DW, the starboard array on the Seawolf is the more sensitive one (TB-29). I think that's the default one. 'Stream the starboard towed array. Helm, aye,' sounds more common to me than the port array lol