Is Britain that much a police state already?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by August

But Oberon, Americans have hated all of those things for over 2 centuries and we've managed to avoid Somaliland thus far.

Indeed, and America is the worse for it according to quite a few people in America.

[August]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Indeed, and America is the worse for it according to quite a few people in America.

Their problem is that they never actually say what is worse. We ain't doing so bad compared to the rest of the world. Life may not be perfect here but i'd say it could be an awful lot more worse than it could be better.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Indeed, and America is the worse for it according to quite a few people in America.

Based on my experience having been stationed in Germany and visited most all of Western Europe and some of Eastern Europe I can easily say that some western European states are much deeper into the police state status.

I felt most watched in Luxemburg City in fact I left most rapidly one night of course this was after throwing a beer bottle at one of their cameras and nailing it despite my state of heavy inebriation. I bet they are still looking for me.

That is what I find do funny about Edward Snowden he fled to the states that are far more oppressive towards their own citizens.

I also find it funny how people do not like the idea of being watched yet many of these people carry electronic devices that they know allow their paths to be followed if someone so desired.

People say that they do not like being controlled but the reality is humans need authority no one has true freedom to do what they desire at any time.

[Oberon]

I think that a gradual move towards greater surveillance of our existence is, quite honestly, inevitable. As technology progresses, bigger mice will be created thus necessitating bigger mouse traps. It started with finger-printing and rolled on from there.
Is there a risk that this could be used against the general public? Absolutely, there's no question about it, but equally it can also be used to save the general public from harm.

It's like a knife, on its own it's pretty harmless, put it in the hands of a human being and it's either a tool for making dinner or a murder weapon.

[Penguin]

What I don't understand about the Brits is that they find the idea of a national ID or a central registration abhorrent, but are ok with cams watching every move.
Here it seems like the opposite - ID cool, cams bad.

[Stealhead]

If you think about it the idea of a "national ID" feels a lot less invasive than lots of cameras. Of the thing with the cameras is in most cases no one is really sitting and watching them live (with some exceptions).

And they really do not stop people.I have seen plenty of videos of people mugging someone in London they seem not to care that a camera is watching them and they know that they have a pretty good chance of getting away before the law shows up.


Of IDs really do not stop anything.If someone really has a need to forge a document they will. Here in the US they got a hard on for the ID thing after 9/11 because those guys just illegally aquired legit IDs and then simply did not follow the legal requirements.

So they get the stupid idea to have the national IDs.Before that many states became much stricter when it came to getting a license or to renew one.Of course they fail to realize that a determined terrorist or drug dealer or kid that wants to buy booze will simply find some way to acquire a fraudulent ID anything can be faked even if it uses electronic technology.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

If you think about it the idea of a "national ID" feels a lot less invasive than lots of cameras. Of the thing with the cameras is in most cases no one is really sitting and watching them live (with some exceptions).

And they really do not stop people.I have seen plenty of videos of people mugging someone in London they seem not to care that a camera is watching them and they know that they have a pretty good chance of getting away before the law shows up.


Of IDs really do not stop anything.If someone really has a need to forge a document they will. Here in the US they got a hard on for the ID thing after 9/11 because those guys just illegally aquired legit IDs and then simply did not follow the legal requirements.

So they get the stupid idea to have the national IDs.Before that many states became much stricter when it came to getting a license or to renew one.Of course they fail to realize that a determined terrorist or drug dealer or kid that wants to buy booze will simply find some way to acquire a fraudulent ID anything can be faked even if it uses electronic technology.

Well I can tell you that a compulsive ID can be pretty much invasive - especially when we talk about stop an frisk policy and you're on the short end of the stick . Espeically interesting when you have to explain the German law to the cops that we are required to have an ID but not to carry it - while Officer Arseclown is eager to use his billy club on a smartass... Hey, in the few timnes I've been to America I have noticed that US perosns in charge (cops, bouncers, vendors) are much more cool with me not carrying my passport as a stinking foreigner (which I am required to do so by Us law), than German cops.

I agree with you about the false sense of security cams give, we have the same trend here. More cams - less security personnel on the street. However nobody who got their head kicked in or was raped was gladly telling afterwards: "Hey, at least they got the perps mug on vid!"...
It seems to be all about short-term financial savings - a beat cop on patrol just costs more than a goggled-eyed nerd who oversees 30 monitors.

There is one secret about criminals which too many people do not consider: A perp doesn't think about the consequences when they commit their crime. Repercussions don't count (that's why capital pounisment is bs, but that's another topic)- a human in the way who says "Stop!" and acts accordingly is a different story.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

No, not really.


The Times is just The Sun with big words and no tits, perhaps you should choose another publication to compare the Frankfurter with.

nope, wise people have done this comparision: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...22&postcount=5 maybe the FAZ has a lil more focus on cultural things - though it was dismissed as "they're all Commie papers!"

Originally Posted by Penguin

nope, wise people have done this comparision: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...22&postcount=5 maybe the FAZ has a lil more focus on cultural things - though it was dismissed as "they're all Commie papers!"

You need to switch #3&4 to pair with #1 so it matches ownership.

[STEED]

I say yes but not in the cover story that we all know.

I agree about CCTV we have it every where but 80% are the old analogue poor picture system not much help to anyone. HDCCTV costs a lot more money and I hardly think your see them in town centers and car parks.

[Betonov]

Here's what I'll do.

When I'll stay in London this year, I'll be watchful of my surroundings and then compare how safe I feel compared to my country.

If I feel safer in regards of feeling safe from the law, the entire article is horse manure since police presence here is sitting nearby a cop on break in a pub and CCTV is something only banks have.

[Skybird]

It'S unfortunate that the essay is not available in English and thus this thread necessarily remains to be shallow, actually the essay is much more subtle and does not target the surveillance state only that is being excused with 2001 and 2005, but a climate of generally risen fear and over-caution that indicates a severe mentality change. As the author put it: the Brits are the new Prussians of Europe, obedient and servile towards a state that increasingly bosses them around on behalf or propagating the better moral behaviour, and some of the exmaple he gives, are really pretty much absurd. This, he says, is increasingly supressing the classic heritage of Britian being a home of tight-lipped citizens defending their civil liberties and not being intimidated that easily at all. He referred to a recent article in the Spectator that apparently published an essay arguing in this general tone.

What I think, not just about Britain but about the EU in general, is this. There is this old and quitre amsuing action mmovie with Sylvester Stallone, "Deomolition man". It depicts a future in which people are infantile idiots moving around grinning all day and babbling super-soft-soft empty phrases and greetings designed to illustrate how wellmeaning and joyful everybody is. That the police'S ability to deal with criminal thugs got completely castrated by this imbecility, is part of what makes this movie so funny. At the core of this new, super-healthy society is a dictator that rules by pretending to just mean it well, the suppression is dressed in the clothes of moral behavior, better food rules and health education and again aims at castrating any aggressive drive in people. With a population of infantile early imbeciles, you do not need physical violence and torture, police and arrest as tools to secure your power - castrating the people between their ears and turning them into grinning idiots works so much better.

Funny movie, btw, some of the humorous points still make me laugh, especially Sly's way to find toilet paper in a world that does not know toilet paper anymore.

"Sanfte Grüße!"

[Tango589]

Originally Posted by Penguin

What I don't understand about the Brits is that they find the idea of a national ID or a central registration abhorrent, but are ok with cams watching every move.
Here it seems like the opposite - ID cool, cams bad.

I don't think it ws the general idea of an ID card that was the problem, most people carry driving licenses with photo, DOB, address on anyway. What was the problem was the Govt wanted us to stump up well over £100 to carry the damn thing. If the Govt wanted us to have it, the Govt can pay for it!

[Skybird]

I tried to find that article in the Spectator, but not knowing author and titkle, that was in vein, but I found this article, which is loosely linked to the matter, and it is good:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/edwest/...d-even-madder/

This is also what the German FAZ article touches upon. The Spectator at the end argues "It’s just that in Britain and America the liberal-Left has had a moral monopoly for so many years that this has pushed it to some extreme positions, encouraged intolerance of other opinions, and created a large moral gulf between the rulers and the ruled."

This is true in Germany as well, though due to slightly different mechanisms. In the late 60s, there were the student riots over here that Germans today just summarize under a single label, calling it all "die Achtundsechziger", or "68er". Protests against America, Vietnam, at the same time celebrating mass murder committed in the name of communist regimes, then the rise of left terrorism in Germany, a general revolt against the petrified state structures, and time and again propagating communism over market economy and democracy.Unfortunately in germany this scene was allowed to seize the most influential field of inner poltics there is: the educaiton sector. Year for year and decade for decade, the educational structures (public schools, universities, and their pltical adminstration) were left under control of the 68er generation, and that allowed them to breed the generation that would follow them once they themselves would leave the job scene due to age. Today, we have the seocnd and third generaiton of 68er in place, andf they arranged themselves nicely with the growing trend in ALL poltical parties towards socialst concepts, which is unavoidably like I have often argued before, because politicians make career by promising to plunder the rich and share the loot with the mass, and the mass demands form politicians to plunder the rich and share the loot with the masses. And so, traditional politics and far-left leaning thinking in the 68er tradition came together.

That's why poltical correctness is striking terribly heavy today in German schools and universities, also this terrible joke of genderist pseudo-science and ultra-radical feminism. If you have the bug sitting in the very centre of your education industry, then it breeds more and more bugs like itself, of course.

And it shows.

It's like with a tick. The more blood it sucks, the more germ-infested poison it produces and pumps it into its victim.

[Oberon]

You are fined five credits for a breach of the verbal morality statue.