Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Betonov]

my co-worker is from Moldova.

he's actually not very anxious about the Russians. When Moldova gained independence the country was robbed from within and thinks that the Russians will bring in some capital. Like in the good old days

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Well...if we're talking about restoring old borders...

You can have Florida and we'll throw in kali-fornia Steed.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Betonov

my co-worker is from Moldova.

he's actually not very anxious about the Russians. When Moldova gained independence the country was robbed from within and thinks that the Russians will bring in some capital. Like in the good old days

That is how it usually works , people may have the opinions but the economical issues take over at the end of the day.
Will see how it works out in Ukraine , the current situation is not doing any good for ukrainian economy which had been weak even before it all began.

[Jimbuna]

Rest assured, Russia will do what is best for Russia.

[TarJak]

And Putin will do what is best for Putin.

[Skybird]

l smell something fishy here.

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/...aratist-group/

I say its a plot by the Western-Ukraine right wingers, Kiev and or Svoboda. Svoboda's leaders have repeatedly offended and defamed Jews in the past.

This counters the above link:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...t-by-whom.html

Putin knows that internationally he would not win anything by making such a stupid propaganda move. Svoboda's leaders however were retarded enough to intimidate a radio moderator they did not like in front of running cameras and recording it, until he signed his resignation, then abducted him over the night and beat him up.

The West must not like Putin's doings. But why the West thinks it must like the current Kiev gang any more when it is not any less underhanded than Putin, but even more stupid, escapes me. I'm sorry for the European tax money that the EU has transferred or will transfer soon to Kiev. I'm sorry for every single cent of it.

On a sidenote, Snowden today payed a part of the bill he owes to Putin for giving him shelter. He did not like it, I'm certain, the question and answer were too obviously staged and prepared in advance, but where else could Snowden have gone back then? In case of distress the devil eats flies. I hope he finds an alternative place that does not get him assassinated or kidnapped and brought to the US, and frees him of the need of accepting to get abused for propaganda stunts like this, he deserved something much better for what he did.

[Skybird]

Western wishful thinkers celebrate yesterday's diplomatic "success" of having the Russians agreeing to disarm illegal bandits, to use a Russian official's terms. Sanctions worked, they conclude, Russia feels the sting of financial loss.

Two things to say on that. First, Putin can afford to promise or support that demand for disarming illegal bandits, since the separatists will not so easily allow to get disarmed, and since it is not defined by the Russians whom they see as "illegal forces", they are free to spare separatists form this description. Therefore, any attempt by the Kiev gang to disarm the separatists nevertheless can and will lead to Russian reactions, mostly in the hidden, that support the separatists. It mjhst still not end in the East separating from the West. But the main objectives for the Kremlin already have been achieved: the Crimea is Russia's, the Ukraine will not turn NATO, it will remain internally weak and divided and prone to Russian influence and unable to become a staging area of strategic threats on Russia's border, and the Russian population in the East will have been able to reduce Kiev's power over them anyway.

Whatever happens next in the East: for Putin it already is not the main objective but a bonus exceeding objectives. Considering the need to financially maintain the Eastern Ukraine if it splits form Kiev, I am not certain that the Russians really want it to join the federation. I'm 50:50 divided over that assessment.

Poor Western diplomats. Sense of realism is so hard to obtain.



Thank God Superobama is preparing more Visa refusals for Russian top staff. That will teach 'em.

[Tango589]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Well...if we're talking about restoring old borders...

I'm not entirely sure we'd want it back. Too big, too expensive, and who's to say we could make any better job of governing these places than they do? Hell, our govt.can't even keep one small damp island in a far corner of Europe on an even keel. Also, we would rather not have to look after Tarjak, Cybermat47 and the rest of that motley crew again!

[Jimbuna]

^ Our prisons are full, we need more real estate and Australia would do nicely, after all it has previously been tried and tested

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Tango589

I'm not entirely sure we'd want it back. Too big, too expensive, and who's to say we could make any better job of governing these places than they do? Hell, our govt.can't even keep one small damp island in a far corner of Europe on an even keel. Also, we would rather not have to look after Tarjak, Cybermat47 and the rest of that motley crew again!

I must admit, the whole $17t of debt isn't that appealing when you look at the Thirteen Colonies... And the less said about 'Rhodesia' the better...

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Western wishful thinkers celebrate yesterday's diplomatic "success" of having the Russians agreeing to disarm illegal bandits, to use a Russian official's terms. Sanctions worked, they conclude, Russia feels the sting of financial loss.

Two things to say on that. First, Putin can afford to promise or support that demand for disarming illegal bandits, since the separatists will not so easily allow to get disarmed, and since it is not defined by the Russians whom they see as "illegal forces", they are free to spare separatists form this description. Therefore, any attempt by the Kiev gang to disarm the separatists nevertheless can and will lead to Russian reactions, mostly in the hidden, that support the separatists. It mjhst still not end in the East separating from the West. But the main objectives for the Kremlin already have been achieved: the Crimea is Russia's, the Ukraine will not turn NATO, it will remain internally weak and divided and prone to Russian influence and unable to become a staging area of strategic threats on Russia's border, and the Russian population in the East will have been able to reduce Kiev's power over them anyway.

Whatever happens next in the East: for Putin it already is not the main objective but a bonus exceeding objectives. Considering the need to financially maintain the Eastern Ukraine if it splits form Kiev, I am not certain that the Russians really want it to join the federation. I'm 50:50 divided over that assessment.

Poor Western diplomats. Sense of realism is so hard to obtain.



Thank God Superobama is preparing more Visa refusals for Russian top staff. That will teach 'em.

And what exactly are they to do?

The problem is that there is only a certain level of sanctions they can take without it backfiring on them, and in particular Europe. This was pretty inevitable, as it gives Putin his objectives and lets the western powers save face by making it look like they have persuaded Putin to back down.
It's all about de-escalating without making it look like any side has lost, however the question is whether Putin still has control over the 'pro-Russians' in Ukraine and if he does whether he is willing to use that.

This was always going to be Russias game, Ukraine is not a NATO member so there's only so much NATO nations can get involved in it, I think most NATO nations knew that their options were extremely limited from the start, and in a way, Russias aggressive actions might actually benefit NATO by encouraging nations still on the fence, like the Czech Republic and Slovakia, as well as Finland and Sweden, to join NATO and band together in the face of the 'Russian menace'. It also gives western militaries a good card to play against de-militarisation post-Afghanistan, and keeps Eastern Europe in the pro-NATO, pro-EU camp in a time when the EU is looking increasingly shaky and NATO has been primarily involved in the Middle East.

Of course, the downside is that we've now got to reconvert all our military gear back to fighting a war in Europe after spending ten years converting it to fighting one in the Middle East...

[BossMark]

Putin's been secretly funnelling tea, crumpets, and doilies to the Ukrainian rebels.

I fear he's trying to instigate a civil war.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Oberon

And what exactly are they to do?

There is no reason to assume the Russians do not know where NATO's red lines are, so just to shut up and stay away from the gang in Kiev as well would be sufficiently beneficial.

Originally Posted by Oberon

Of course, the downside is that we've now got to reconvert all our military gear back to fighting a war in Europe after spending ten years converting it to fighting one in the Middle East...

Thank God then, the future of Steal Beasts Pro seems to be safe, then. I was starting to worry, with all the shifting of military attentions to low intensity and asymmetrical wars.

[Jimbuna]

Do I detect a hint of sarcastic humour Sky?

[Skybird]

No... I just miss the cold war. Politics were predictable and more stable back then.