Swastikas and Germany in the modern day... - Page 2

03-29-14, 10:30 AM

Quote:

So, you are in favor of a limited freedom of speech. Which wouldn't be freedom of speech, because it is controls in some shape or form. It would be "limited freedom of speech", which isn't "freedom of speech"

Freedom of speech is always limited.

Gammelpreusse · 03-29-14, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Friscobay

The paradox of the swastika does not take long to rear its head, even to areas as seemingly mundane as gaming.

Consider the fact that there have been thousands of downloads to mods that place the correct Kriegsmarine swastika devices back where they historically belong in the SH series. I myself, instantly viewing the thing from a historical aspect rather than that of a budding ''neo-nazi'', said under my breath upon looking at a German craft for the first time in SH3, ''now this is just stupid'' , when seeing UBISOFTS famous Big White Empty Disk Where A Swastika Should Be -Flags.
Closer inspection found that even devices as small as uniform badging, had the ''eagle'' swastikas removed. Now perhaps, UBISOFT, in its Euro sales and in other nations where the swastika is banned, may not have wanted to get its SH versions deep-sixed for including them in the game. I am not sure. However, simply the fact that we head for ''correct ensign/flag'' downloads displays that we are less uptight about the device of the Third Reich, than we are in ensuring greater historical accuracy within military gaming and simulation.
That's just my two pfennigs...

Dunno. If you had some "first hand" expirience of national socialism, or it's aftermath, your eagerness to download according mods may have been a bit dampend.

Business practices based on some national laws, on the other hand, are an entirely differrent topic to begin with.

fireftr18 · 03-29-14, 10:42 AM

It's one thing to ban symbols in certain circumstances. In this case, just the fear of repeating the past is understandable. The important thing is to remember the history, the atrocities, the destruction that was caused. Just as we celebrate the high parts of our histories, we need to also remember the low parts. In the US, our history lessons make a point to teach about slavery. We don't honor it, we feel it should be remembered as a low point in our nation's history. We also make it a point to teach how our Native Americans were treated. Another low point. We teach these, not because we're proud of them, but because we're ashamed, and we don't want it repeated. As long as Germany teaches about the Nazi era in history, then that is what is important.

Friscobay · 03-29-14, 10:43 AM

[QUOTE=Gammelpreusse;2191706]Dunno. If you had some "first hand" expirience of national socialism, or it's aftermath, your eagerness to download according mods may have been a bit dampend.

True enough, but may we infer that there should have been no representation whatever of the swastika in say, ''Saving Private Ryan'' ''DAS BOOT'' or ''Band of Brothers'' because of the fact that not a single actor or director in any of these historically-based films lived under national socialism either? It is thus not so much an ''eagerness'' as it is a simple desire to closely match modern interpretations of past historical events with accuracy when it is provided.

Like I say, it is a paradox once history is brought into the discussion.

Catfish · 03-29-14, 10:50 AM

In Germany using swastikas (and i mean the black one on white ground, surrounded by red) is usual and allowed in historic or educational context.
It is forbidden to use such insignias on e.g. flags or posters, or during demonstrations though. I do not think that is such a bad idea, even after this time.
I think it is idiotic to forbid it in PC games though - after all simulations are after all educational - maybe not "Castle Wolfenstein" or such crap lol.

What i find strange is, that just of all in Russia, but also in the US, there are so much sympathizers (with the Nazis) who openly use the symbols, and obviously welcome National Socalism.
I mean, Russia ? What do they think the real Nazis thought of them ?

Gammelpreusse · 03-29-14, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Friscobay

True enough, but may we infer that there should have been no representation whatever of the swastika in say, ''Saving Private Ryan'' ''DAS BOOT'' or ''Band of Brothers'' because of the fact that not a single actor or director in any of these historically-based films lived under national socialism either? It is thus not so much an ''eagerness'' as it is a simple desire to closely match modern interpretations of past historical events with accuracy when it is provided.

Like I say, it is a paradox once history is brought into the discussion.

As I said, displaying the Swastika in a historical context, just like in movies, is perfectly legal in Germany.

The problem with PC games is that they still are considered "toys" in Germany, yanno? Stuff for little children. Rather debateable, but that is the sole reason why you do not see swastikas even in an historical context here when it comes to games.

Quote:

What i find strange is, that just of all in Russia, but also in the US, there are so much sympathizers (with the Nazis) who openly use the symbols, and obviously welcome National Socalism.
I mean, Russia ? What do they think the real Nazis thought of them ?

Well, contrary to popular believe, Slavs were not considered "Untermenschen" per se, but just a lower form of Aryans. Fair skinned, blue eyed and so on and on. But then again, these categories were always a bit sketchy and changed according to need, like when the whole Lebensraum stuff became an active policy. And the slavic folks always had their very own superiority/minority complexes, starting with Panslawism.
So them folks just translated the germanic compontents of national socialism to the slavic elements.

Aktungbby · 03-29-14, 11:16 AM

The OP leaves out a few items: 1: Freedom of speech is not a blanket absolution even in America. You cannot for example yell "fire" in movie theatre which was the case cited by a Justice on the subject; as it would tend to cause harmful panic and destruction or even death from trampling. 2: In the South, as in previous threads, The Confederate battle flag cannot be flown over public buildings as formerly. It appears Germany deals with the incendiary issue of the Swastika similarily. However the issue is not completely dead as the Bavarian state which holds the copywrite on Mein Kampf prepares to republish what has been a good little money-maker on Amazon in English when the copywrite expires shortly and become eminent domain. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/24/mein-kampf-germany-bavaria-adolf-hitler-memoir_n_1449870.html The Dec. 8, 1999, file photo shows a book store displaying Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf" in downtown Sarajevo. (AP Photo/Hidajet Delic with swastika on book jacket)
One of the most controversial books in history is about to come back into print in its homeland -- something that hasn't been true in nearly 70 years. On Monday, the German state of Bavaria announced plans to publish an annotated version of Adolf Hitler’s infamous “Mein Kampf,” according to Der Spiegel.
The southern German state has held ownership of the book’s copyright since the end of World War II, the Associated Press notes, but those rights are due to expire in 2015.
“Mein Kampf” is currently banned in Austria and Russia, the Daily Mail writes. But contrary to popular belief, the notorious book is not banned in Germany -- Bavaria has simply prevented its printing in an effort to control production, the AP notes.
In January, a German magazine ignited controversy when it tried to publish excerpts from the book with critical commentary, the New York Times reports. German authorities took the matter to court, which ruled that any publication of the book violated Bavaria’s copyright.
But now, with the copyright expiration drawing near, Bavaria is publishing its own version of the book and calling it damage control. Der Spiegel reports that the book will include commentaries that condemn Hitler’s arguments. Not to be out done: In the United States the book can be found at almost any community library and can be bought, sold and traded in bookshops. The U.S. government seized the copyright during the Second World War under the Trading with the Enemy Act and in 1979, Houghton Mifflin, the U.S. publisher of the book, bought the rights from the government. 15,000 copies are sold a year. Clearly in Germany, the crooked cross may be banned...but the 'bible' is about to be republished?!! I suspect...Like many celebrities, ol' Adolph of Munich will earn more Deutschmarks dead than alive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf

note the swastika on the jacket-shortly to be republished.

GoldenRivet · 03-29-14, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

then what of the hammer and sickle? It is drenched in as much blood if not more than the swastika, and yet it is still perfectly permissible to use it within Russia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

There are other genocides, including the colonisation of the Americas if one wishes to look upon it as such, which have taken a higher death toll than the Holocaust, and yet the events are often overlooked and dismissed.

quite simple really

Those sides won

Friscobay · 03-29-14, 11:56 AM

[QUOTE=Catfish;2191714]In Germany using swastikas (and i mean the black one on white ground, surrounded by red) is usual and allowed in historic or educational context.
It is forbidden to use such insignias on e.g. flags or posters, or during demonstrations though. I do not think that is such a bad idea, even after this time.
I think it is idiotic to forbid it in PC games though - after all simulations are after all educational - maybe not "Castle Wolfenstein" or such crap lol.

I agree. When the reader looks to the ''Download'' list here at SUBSIM and views ''most popular downloads'', he is looking at this in the No.3 slot at over 20,000.

''Accurate German Flags''.

For myself, the impetus to include such flags on the sterns of my Type VIIs or German surface ships in SH3, is solely driven by a desire for historical accuracy. The same could be said for installing TRIGGER MARU, or downloading a great mod representation of a BALAO -class periscope and gauge/dial facings , and the like. Simulation, historical re-enactment, living history, all seek accuracy in their use.

Alex · 03-29-14, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

The name "Hitler" is banned in Germany as well, you can name your child "Adolf", but it is done almost never, but a second name "Hitler" is banned.

The simply unimaginable monstrosity of the crimes back then explain sufficiently why the symbols used to represent those committing them, are no-go now. Holocaust and the the amount of human suffering due to WWII in Europe and Russia, is second to none, in its dimension and perfidy. You cannot use the standards by which you would judge other, ordinary wars and crimes, to describe them. This dark event stands out from the background of human history. Wanting to "un-ban" it now, holds not the smallest positive gain, none.

The evilness and nothing-but-barbary-kind of nature of Nazism and the third Reich, stands beyond any doubt and must not be given any space for doubt anymore. To ban reminding symbols for them, therefore is acceptable, and in no way can be demonised as "banning free mind and free speech". To unban them , holds not a single positive gain, none.

We have growing objections to forming free opinions and free speech and free minds, encoded in social standards and this thing called political correctness and what in German I usually call Gesinnungs- und Tugendterror. Swastika and "Hitler" being banned, is not part of that.

I think, Nazi parties and organisations should be banned, too, and persecuted without any forgiveness. As I said, their barbaric basic nature and ideology history already has proven beyond even the smallest of the smallest doubts. Root it out. the argument of giving something the benefit of the doubt as long as it has not indeed fully proven to be guilty, is invalid here.

That the swastika has been hijacked and originally was a symbol of luck and happiness, cannot chnage that it last was used for the purpose of enormous horror and terror, and that it has left a branding sign on history, therefore.

To hell with all Nazi scum there is. I refuse to care for their interests and to be bothered by putting them on the list of endangered species.

You're into psychology, IIRC, Sky ?

Quote:

I'm confident you've been a good student, and let your mind sink peacefully in that sea of self-hate to the point it may hardly be recoverable nowadays, but I truly hope for the best of your country, for the best of the german youth. And so I'm hoping for a re-awakening of nationalism (in all countries), following an intense overhaul of that actual educational system your country is not responsible for, and out of which it will hardly take any advantage.

The bad thing is that the educational system is pretty much the same here - there's one and only evil on the one hand, one and only martyr on the other...
It's kind of strange when you're a little boy to get to know you live so close from Hell, haha.

03-29-14, 01:15 PM

Well the neo Nazi has spoken, I hope Alex put you all right on the beautiful nationalist ideology of the crooked cross.
I bet education is a global jewish conspiracy

Catfish · 03-29-14, 01:30 PM

Sry for being off topic -

@Alex.

hmm i think i understand what you mean, but this is still crap especially today (today, that is!)

People hoarding and assisting each other as tribes or whatever in former times to reach a goal above individual laziness or against other bullies was all fine and nice, however there is a point in science and let's say enlightenment where such notions should reach a higher level, and be the base for the whole world population to feel and act as as one against a hostile universe, and work together.
Putin may not be the badest leader Russia had, but his thoughts and mind are very yesterday. There are other less backwards examples of course, which as well do not fit into modern times, any more.

Nations are the problem. As long as there is the idea of some people/nation/etnic blahblahblah being better/more valuable/more-deserving, and (ab)using this feeling to diminish others, there will be war.
As Reagan rightly said, people do not wage wars. Governments [=nations] do.

We are living on borrowed time, not only icbm-wise. Any smaller to middle asteroid can ruin the earth's ecosphere in a minute, and mankind will not survive unless we have spread, and be able to live elsewhere.
Despite our gas giants swallowing most of those snowballs, there will be 'the one', one day. We have not much time - think of it.
There is no point in one Serbia, a big Germany or a super power USA. As is no sense in a dominating China, or Russia.

I am all for internationalism, international science, and to hell with national administrations and kachos, if they hinder science and improving knowledge.

Mittelwaechter · 03-29-14, 01:39 PM

Nazi insignias are not forbidden in general, but for promoting the ideology.
Again the link to the resource: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafg...ch_section_86a

We actually have a Nazi party in Germany and they are free to express their opinions.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...i_Deutschlands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...rty_of_Germany

Some even vote for them and they have a few 'politicians' in communal and even state parliaments.

There have been several attempts to ban the party - one is still to be voted for by our Federal Constitutional Court.

03-29-14, 03:28 PM

Oh dear, I didn't provide enough arguments for the statement, though the basis of the statement cannot be in doubt neither can the truth, though apparently truth is irrelevant.
So more clarity is needed.
Alex you are a neo Nazi aren't you.
The form of nationalism you advocate is based on hatred and conspiracy theories isn't it.
Your nationalist heroes you have written about in your nation were part of the Nazi puppet regime in Vichy weren't they.
When you talk of the education system you believe the education system is part of a global jewish conspiracy which of course runs everything don't you.
You have posted all this on the forum havn't you.
You are very open about your Nazi ideology aren't you.
Apart from on occasion when you talk about the Occidental conspiracy when you want to sort of disguise your nonsense about the Jewish conspiracy.

Now to tie it all into the OP.
Everyone knows about Nazis to some extent or another, their ideology is based purely on hate and discrimination.
Jews are the cause of all the worlds problems and their removal is the solution to all the worlds problems.
Ideologies such as those by their very nature constitute incitement.
Incitement doesn't get covered by freedom of speech.

Catfish · 03-29-14, 03:48 PM

Tribesman you may be right in a lot of things, but if you are really interested in propaganda, you can look for re-education and "de-nazification" (lol) in Germany, after the war.

The problem is that over-simplified propaganda always falls back on the perpetrators, sooner or later. And if the wrong people find that out ...
The truth would have been enough.

03-29-14, 11:16 AM	#22
Aktungbby Gefallen Engel U-666 Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: On a tilted, overheated, overpopulated spinning mudball on Collision course with Andromeda Galaxy Posts: 30,023 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	The OP leaves out a few items: 1: Freedom of speech is not a blanket absolution even in America. You cannot for example yell "fire" in movie theatre which was the case cited by a Justice on the subject; as it would tend to cause harmful panic and destruction or even death from trampling. 2: In the South, as in previous threads, The Confederate battle flag cannot be flown over public buildings as formerly. It appears Germany deals with the incendiary issue of the Swastika similarily. However the issue is not completely dead as the Bavarian state which holds the copywrite on Mein Kampf prepares to republish what has been a good little money-maker on Amazon in English when the copywrite expires shortly and become eminent domain. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/24/mein-kampf-germany-bavaria-adolf-hitler-memoir_n_1449870.html The Dec. 8, 1999, file photo shows a book store displaying Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf" in downtown Sarajevo. (AP Photo/Hidajet Delic with swastika on book jacket) One of the most controversial books in history is about to come back into print in its homeland -- something that hasn't been true in nearly 70 years. On Monday, the German state of Bavaria announced plans to publish an annotated version of Adolf Hitler’s infamous “Mein Kampf,” according to Der Spiegel. The southern German state has held ownership of the book’s copyright since the end of World War II, the Associated Press notes, but those rights are due to expire in 2015. “Mein Kampf” is currently banned in Austria and Russia, the Daily Mail writes. But contrary to popular belief, the notorious book is not banned in Germany -- Bavaria has simply prevented its printing in an effort to control production, the AP notes. In January, a German magazine ignited controversy when it tried to publish excerpts from the book with critical commentary, the New York Times reports. German authorities took the matter to court, which ruled that any publication of the book violated Bavaria’s copyright. But now, with the copyright expiration drawing near, Bavaria is publishing its own version of the book and calling it damage control. Der Spiegel reports that the book will include commentaries that condemn Hitler’s arguments. Not to be out done: In the United States the book can be found at almost any community library and can be bought, sold and traded in bookshops. The U.S. government seized the copyright during the Second World War under the Trading with the Enemy Act and in 1979, Houghton Mifflin, the U.S. publisher of the book, bought the rights from the government. 15,000 copies are sold a year. Clearly in Germany, the crooked cross may be banned...but the 'bible' is about to be republished?!! I suspect...Like many celebrities, ol' Adolph of Munich will earn more Deutschmarks dead than alive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf note the swastika on the jacket-shortly to be republished. __________________ "Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness?!!

03-29-14, 01:39 PM	#28
Mittelwaechter The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,304 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Nazi insignias are not forbidden in general, but for promoting the ideology. Again the link to the resource: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafg...ch_section_86a We actually have a Nazi party in Germany and they are free to express their opinions. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...i_Deutschlands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...rty_of_Germany Some even vote for them and they have a few 'politicians' in communal and even state parliaments. There have been several attempts to ban the party - one is still to be voted for by our Federal Constitutional Court. __________________ 10 happy wolves rear 90 blinded, ensnared sheep. 90 happy sheep banish the wolves. Arrest the 1% - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ6hg1oNeGE

03-29-14, 10:42 AM	#18
fireftr18 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Kentucky Posts: 2,528 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 0	It's one thing to ban symbols in certain circumstances. In this case, just the fear of repeating the past is understandable. The important thing is to remember the history, the atrocities, the destruction that was caused. Just as we celebrate the high parts of our histories, we need to also remember the low parts. In the US, our history lessons make a point to teach about slavery. We don't honor it, we feel it should be remembered as a low point in our nation's history. We also make it a point to teach how our Native Americans were treated. Another low point. We teach these, not because we're proud of them, but because we're ashamed, and we don't want it repeated. As long as Germany teaches about the Nazi era in history, then that is what is important.

03-29-14, 10:43 AM	#19
Friscobay Mate Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Texas Posts: 54 Downloads: 47 Uploads: 0	[QUOTE=Gammelpreusse;2191706]Dunno. If you had some "first hand" expirience of national socialism, or it's aftermath, your eagerness to download according mods may have been a bit dampend. True enough, but may we infer that there should have been no representation whatever of the swastika in say, ''Saving Private Ryan'' ''DAS BOOT'' or ''Band of Brothers'' because of the fact that not a single actor or director in any of these historically-based films lived under national socialism either? It is thus not so much an ''eagerness'' as it is a simple desire to closely match modern interpretations of past historical events with accuracy when it is provided. Like I say, it is a paradox once history is brought into the discussion.

03-29-14, 10:50 AM	#20
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,767 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	In Germany using swastikas (and i mean the black one on white ground, surrounded by red) is usual and allowed in historic or educational context. It is forbidden to use such insignias on e.g. flags or posters, or during demonstrations though. I do not think that is such a bad idea, even after this time. I think it is idiotic to forbid it in PC games though - after all simulations are after all educational - maybe not "Castle Wolfenstein" or such crap lol. What i find strange is, that just of all in Russia, but also in the US, there are so much sympathizers (with the Nazis) who openly use the symbols, and obviously welcome National Socalism. I mean, Russia ? What do they think the real Nazis thought of them ?

03-29-14, 11:56 AM	#24
Friscobay Mate Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Texas Posts: 54 Downloads: 47 Uploads: 0	[QUOTE=Catfish;2191714]In Germany using swastikas (and i mean the black one on white ground, surrounded by red) is usual and allowed in historic or educational context. It is forbidden to use such insignias on e.g. flags or posters, or during demonstrations though. I do not think that is such a bad idea, even after this time. I think it is idiotic to forbid it in PC games though - after all simulations are after all educational - maybe not "Castle Wolfenstein" or such crap lol. I agree. When the reader looks to the ''Download'' list here at SUBSIM and views ''most popular downloads'', he is looking at this in the No.3 slot at over 20,000. ''Accurate German Flags''. For myself, the impetus to include such flags on the sterns of my Type VIIs or German surface ships in SH3, is solely driven by a desire for historical accuracy. The same could be said for installing TRIGGER MARU, or downloading a great mod representation of a BALAO -class periscope and gauge/dial facings , and the like. Simulation, historical re-enactment, living history, all seek accuracy in their use.

03-29-14, 01:15 PM	#26
Tribesman Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Well the neo Nazi has spoken, I hope Alex put you all right on the beautiful nationalist ideology of the crooked cross. I bet education is a global jewish conspiracy

03-29-14, 01:30 PM	#27
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,767 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Sry for being off topic - @Alex. hmm i think i understand what you mean, but this is still crap especially today (today, that is!) People hoarding and assisting each other as tribes or whatever in former times to reach a goal above individual laziness or against other bullies was all fine and nice, however there is a point in science and let's say enlightenment where such notions should reach a higher level, and be the base for the whole world population to feel and act as as one against a hostile universe, and work together. Putin may not be the badest leader Russia had, but his thoughts and mind are very yesterday. There are other less backwards examples of course, which as well do not fit into modern times, any more. Nations are the problem. As long as there is the idea of some people/nation/etnic blahblahblah being better/more valuable/more-deserving, and (ab)using this feeling to diminish others, there will be war. As Reagan rightly said, people do not wage wars. Governments [=nations] do. We are living on borrowed time, not only icbm-wise. Any smaller to middle asteroid can ruin the earth's ecosphere in a minute, and mankind will not survive unless we have spread, and be able to live elsewhere. Despite our gas giants swallowing most of those snowballs, there will be 'the one', one day. We have not much time - think of it. There is no point in one Serbia, a big Germany or a super power USA. As is no sense in a dominating China, or Russia. I am all for internationalism, international science, and to hell with national administrations and kachos, if they hinder science and improving knowledge.

03-29-14, 03:28 PM	#29
Tribesman Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Oh dear, I didn't provide enough arguments for the statement, though the basis of the statement cannot be in doubt neither can the truth, though apparently truth is irrelevant. So more clarity is needed. Alex you are a neo Nazi aren't you. The form of nationalism you advocate is based on hatred and conspiracy theories isn't it. Your nationalist heroes you have written about in your nation were part of the Nazi puppet regime in Vichy weren't they. When you talk of the education system you believe the education system is part of a global jewish conspiracy which of course runs everything don't you. You have posted all this on the forum havn't you. You are very open about your Nazi ideology aren't you. Apart from on occasion when you talk about the Occidental conspiracy when you want to sort of disguise your nonsense about the Jewish conspiracy. Now to tie it all into the OP. Everyone knows about Nazis to some extent or another, their ideology is based purely on hate and discrimination. Jews are the cause of all the worlds problems and their removal is the solution to all the worlds problems. Ideologies such as those by their very nature constitute incitement. Incitement doesn't get covered by freedom of speech.

03-29-14, 03:48 PM	#30
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,767 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Tribesman you may be right in a lot of things, but if you are really interested in propaganda, you can look for re-education and "de-nazification" (lol) in Germany, after the war. The problem is that over-simplified propaganda always falls back on the perpetrators, sooner or later. And if the wrong people find that out ... The truth would have been enough.