Moving thru the boat??

BigWalleye · 03-11-14, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter301

Not being a submariner (IRL) if the boat needing trimming because of taking on water in the aft compartment or some other reason wouldn't that be a command the captain would give?

I'm not a submariner, either. My knowledge is based purely on reading - first-person accounts and contemporary training manuals. So what I have to say is fair game for anyone with first-hand experience. But, no, AFAIK, that is not an order the skipper would give.

To quote from NavPers 16160, The Fleet Type Submarine, dated June, 1946, Section 18A3: "The control room is the station of the diving officer who issues the necessary orders during a dive and directs the men at the manifolds, pumps, and diving gear in maintaining the submarine at the desired depth." 18B3: "The diving officer now observes the angle of the submarine." 18B4: "If an excessive angle on the diving planes is necessary to hold a zero bubble, the diving officer orders a readjustment of the ballast in the trim tanks until the planesmen can hold a zero bubble with a minimum use of the planes." 18B5: "The experienced diving officer will, however, recognize both conditions simultaneously, and combine the operations as dictated by his judgment. Thus he may, in a minimum time, return speed control to the commanding officer by his report, 'Final trim.' meaning 'All right over-all and all right fore and aft.'" NavPers 16160 is available online here: http://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/index.htm

Gene Fluckey in "Thunder Below" describes his experience as diving officer in USSBonita , commanded by "Shorty" Nichols. In this incident, Fluckey displays his ability to trim the boat after transiting from the Panama Canal into the saltier, denser Pacific, under the eyes of the squadron commander.

Herbert Werner in Iron Coffins describes his challenge as a skipper saddled with a diving officer who had no feel for trimming the boat. He tries to give the man opportunities to learn, but finally has to replace him with a junior officer with better skills. This was KM, of course, and not USN, but the operational assignments appear to have been very similar.

Again, I admit that this is all "book-learnin'" and if someone who has actually served in the boats could contribute, I'd certainly relish it.

ReallyDedPoet · 03-11-14, 04:23 PM

This was a great thread in it's day:Here

Sniper297 · 03-11-14, 04:58 PM

In the game the player has to manually do a lot of things that others would be doing automatically by standing orders anyway, all I'm talking about is a simplified ballast control that you could manipulate when needed. And could be set to automatic just like map contact updates and automatic targeting on/off. That's another argument I always lose with the train simulator casual players who want eye candy and fluff - suggest more realistic options and they have a hissy fit even after you try to explain that it could be set up as an OPTION, just like flight simulator has sliders for more or less realism in flight physics and controls. For a sub simulator there could be a simple on/off and a manual override when you think the diving officer or DCA isn't doing enough or doing it fast enough.

BigWalleye · 03-11-14, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper297

In the game the player has to manually do a lot of things that others would be doing automatically by standing orders anyway, all I'm talking about is a simplified ballast control that you could manipulate when needed. And could be set to automatic just like map contact updates and automatic targeting on/off. That's another argument I always lose with the train simulator casual players who want eye candy and fluff - suggest more realistic options and they have a hissy fit even after you try to explain that it could be set up as an OPTION, just like flight simulator has sliders for more or less realism in flight physics and controls. For a sub simulator there could be a simple on/off and a manual override when you think the diving officer or DCA isn't doing enough or doing it fast enough.

You want a higher fidelity model of the boat.

I want a higher fidelity model of the boat commander's decision space.

We're not wrong. but we're not right, either. Neither are the people who want eye candy. There's a whole forum around here for people who get off on the beautiful pictures they make with SH4. They aren't wrong either.

But, if I get to choose, I'd rather have effort put into functional modeling of the crew rather than physical modeling of the boat. YMMV.

Sniper297 · 03-11-14, 07:25 PM

No argument here, different strokes for different folks.

I would love to have the option to walk like a first person shooter through a complete boat, and the damage control and crew screens include forward and after battery, both engine rooms and maneuvering (motor room), with the interior modeling all those compartments plus the pump room. My priorities however;
1. Ballast balance buoyancy
2. Do SOMETHING - ANYTHING - with the ADHD brain damaged crew AI (supposed to be Artificial Intelligence, in SH4 it stands for Always Incoherent) so they report important things like an escort of the convoy you're tracking suddenly turning toward you and bending on knots. The only thing those blithering idiots are programmed to report are new contacts, and they're not even smart enough to realize the "new" contact they keep reporting over and over is the same escort zigzagging in and out of visual range. It's almost not worth doing an end-around in SH4, if you're not already ahead of the convoy turn away and let them go by.
3. What you said, an SH5 style internal walk around.
4. An options screen to change default settings - radar defaults to 20 kyards and sweep instead of 8000 yards and focus (every time I go to look at the PPI scope the switch automatically changes to focus in the wrong direction), torpedoes can be set to high speed contact 20 foot depth by default so you don't have to tediously set them yourself every time (another crew job that the captain has to perform in SH4), stuff like that. "Put me on the bearing, up scope" the assistant approach officer doing the waltz with you will spin the scope to the bearing on the TDC, in game no option for that.

Lot of other wish lists after that, but your number 1 wish does come in my top 10 at number 3.

TheDarkWraith · 03-12-14, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper297

In the game the player has to manually do a lot of things that others would be doing automatically by standing orders anyway, all I'm talking about is a simplified ballast control that you could manipulate when needed. And could be set to automatic just like map contact updates and automatic targeting on/off...For a sub simulator there could be a simple on/off and a manual override when you think the diving officer or DCA isn't doing enough or doing it fast enough.

Thanks for reminding me about this for SH5. I just figured out how to take manual control of the fore/aft diveplanes in it

It's not simple to do as requires some patches to the files. Think I located all the ballast tanks also

ETR3(SS) · 03-12-14, 07:37 AM

Just a quick thought here while I have time. Drills. I need the ability to conduct drills so the crew will become better. The ability of the crew is determined by its experience in handling certain situations. A higher rank does not always mean that that individual is better than any other.

Dread Knot · 03-12-14, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETR3(SS)

Just a quick thought here while I have time. Drills. I need the ability to conduct drills so the crew will become better. The ability of the crew is determined by its experience in handling certain situations. A higher rank does not always mean that that individual is better than any other.

Agreed. This is usually what skippers spent that big chunk of time between leaving and reaching their patrol area on. Having nothing to do besides keeping the time compression pumped up to it's highest level in the two weeks steaming from Pearl Harbor to Japan seems kind of a waste.

Sniper297 · 03-12-14, 12:11 PM

Missed one,

"Can't tell you how often I've had a leak and had to keep ordering depths just to keep from sinking too low or slowly rising too high..."

Too often. E to blow ballast, then P for periscope depth rising past 100 feet to avoid broaching in the middle of 6 destroyers, waiting for it to sink back down to 300 and blowing again, lather rinse repeat.

Until you run out of compressed air. Flooding in the after torpedo room so the stern is down, it WILL stay at periscope depth but with the periscope 30 feet underwater and the bow sticking up 40 feet above the surface. No way to trim by pumping from after trim to sea or putting a bubble in some of the after ballast tanks. This game gives the impression that there's one ballast tank that's either empty or full, and no such thing as trim tanks.

Just the ability to compensate for flooding to level the boat and/or keep it from sinking would be enough, having emergency blow as the only option is ridiculously simplified for simulating any submersible vessel.

"Just a quick thought here while I have time. Drills."

Second that, every WWII fleet sub article the pundits claim 30 seconds for Das Boot and 60 seconds for US fleet boat. Every account by an actual WWII submariner says 60 seconds for the first few days, but keelhauling for the entire crew if they couldn't get that down to 30 seconds after a couple weeks of drills.

"Having nothing to do besides keeping the time compression pumped up to it's highest level in the two weeks steaming from Pearl Harbor to Japan"

Primary reason I've "Gone Asiatic" and made the mod with the supply bases, that long tedious trek to and from the operating area was just too boring for what's supposed to be entertainment.

hunter301 · 03-12-14, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

Agreed. This is usually what skippers spent that big chunk of time between leaving and reaching their patrol area on. Having nothing to do besides keeping the time compression pumped up to it's highest level in the two weeks steaming from Pearl Harbor to Japan......

Yeah that's usually when I get it right up the ol' wazoo.
Just as I get up to go to the bathroom or kitchen, that's when I hear the alarms going off....
"Were taking damage sir!!"
"Flooding in the torpedo room!!"
"Damage to engines!!"

WTF.......

I'm in the middle of the pacific ocean!?

I thought the game was supposed to reduce time compression when an event took place. "Radar contact!" or "Ship bearing....."

03-11-14, 04:23 PM	#2
ReallyDedPoet Canadian Wolf Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Canada. The one and only, East Coast Posts: 10,903 Downloads: 946 Uploads: 5	This was a great thread in it's day:Here __________________ Back in the Day

03-12-14, 07:37 AM	#7
ETR3(SS) Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Between test depth and periscope depth Posts: 3,021 Downloads: 175 Uploads: 16	Just a quick thought here while I have time. Drills. I need the ability to conduct drills so the crew will become better. The ability of the crew is determined by its experience in handling certain situations. A higher rank does not always mean that that individual is better than any other. __________________ USS Kentucky SSBN 737 (G) Comms Div 2003-2006 Qualified 19 November 03 Yes I was really on a submarine.

03-11-14, 04:58 PM	#3
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	In the game the player has to manually do a lot of things that others would be doing automatically by standing orders anyway, all I'm talking about is a simplified ballast control that you could manipulate when needed. And could be set to automatic just like map contact updates and automatic targeting on/off. That's another argument I always lose with the train simulator casual players who want eye candy and fluff - suggest more realistic options and they have a hissy fit even after you try to explain that it could be set up as an OPTION, just like flight simulator has sliders for more or less realism in flight physics and controls. For a sub simulator there could be a simple on/off and a manual override when you think the diving officer or DCA isn't doing enough or doing it fast enough.

03-11-14, 07:25 PM	#5
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	No argument here, different strokes for different folks. I would love to have the option to walk like a first person shooter through a complete boat, and the damage control and crew screens include forward and after battery, both engine rooms and maneuvering (motor room), with the interior modeling all those compartments plus the pump room. My priorities however; 1. Ballast balance buoyancy 2. Do SOMETHING - ANYTHING - with the ADHD brain damaged crew AI (supposed to be Artificial Intelligence, in SH4 it stands for Always Incoherent) so they report important things like an escort of the convoy you're tracking suddenly turning toward you and bending on knots. The only thing those blithering idiots are programmed to report are new contacts, and they're not even smart enough to realize the "new" contact they keep reporting over and over is the same escort zigzagging in and out of visual range. It's almost not worth doing an end-around in SH4, if you're not already ahead of the convoy turn away and let them go by. 3. What you said, an SH5 style internal walk around. 4. An options screen to change default settings - radar defaults to 20 kyards and sweep instead of 8000 yards and focus (every time I go to look at the PPI scope the switch automatically changes to focus in the wrong direction), torpedoes can be set to high speed contact 20 foot depth by default so you don't have to tediously set them yourself every time (another crew job that the captain has to perform in SH4), stuff like that. "Put me on the bearing, up scope" the assistant approach officer doing the waltz with you will spin the scope to the bearing on the TDC, in game no option for that. Lot of other wish lists after that, but your number 1 wish does come in my top 10 at number 3.

03-12-14, 12:11 PM	#9
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Missed one, "Can't tell you how often I've had a leak and had to keep ordering depths just to keep from sinking too low or slowly rising too high..." Too often. E to blow ballast, then P for periscope depth rising past 100 feet to avoid broaching in the middle of 6 destroyers, waiting for it to sink back down to 300 and blowing again, lather rinse repeat. Until you run out of compressed air. Flooding in the after torpedo room so the stern is down, it WILL stay at periscope depth but with the periscope 30 feet underwater and the bow sticking up 40 feet above the surface. No way to trim by pumping from after trim to sea or putting a bubble in some of the after ballast tanks. This game gives the impression that there's one ballast tank that's either empty or full, and no such thing as trim tanks. Just the ability to compensate for flooding to level the boat and/or keep it from sinking would be enough, having emergency blow as the only option is ridiculously simplified for simulating any submersible vessel. "Just a quick thought here while I have time. Drills." Second that, every WWII fleet sub article the pundits claim 30 seconds for Das Boot and 60 seconds for US fleet boat. Every account by an actual WWII submariner says 60 seconds for the first few days, but keelhauling for the entire crew if they couldn't get that down to 30 seconds after a couple weeks of drills. "Having nothing to do besides keeping the time compression pumped up to it's highest level in the two weeks steaming from Pearl Harbor to Japan" Primary reason I've "Gone Asiatic" and made the mod with the supply bases, that long tedious trek to and from the operating area was just too boring for what's supposed to be entertainment.