Nelson Mandela dead at 95

[August]

Say what you want about the man but once he got out of jail he did seem to stop his wife from ordering more "necklacings"

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

The South African Apartheid system was based upon the systematic use of violence to assert the 'right' of a minority to subjugate and oppress the majority - and as such, the use of force to overthrow it was legitimate. Should Mandela be immune for criticism? No - but cut out the crap about 'terrorism' - Madela was no more a 'terrorist' than the fighters of the French Resistance were.

BS. The French resistance fought against and targeted German military operations: by sabotage, spying, assassination, supply interruption, intel gathering, assaults, etc. , and sometimes, when targeting these, it accepted that civilian French innocents could be caught in the line of fire. But these were not deliberately targetted, they did not make targeting French civilian population the mission objective. The ANC however did many bombings against deliberately civilian targets, and killed black and white civilians alike. Including school busses.

But this lack of caring for differences is not new, in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict it gets all declared the same, too. The one side makes civilian families and people and children the target of lethal force - and this is being minimised (and in the end: legitimised) by claiming that when the other side accepting occasional collateral damages when aiming at not civilian but military targets of the enemy and civilians happen to get caught in the line of fire: that this is of the same moral quality (or not). That way, the victim and the attacker get declared to be of the same rights and guilts.

Whom you are deliberately targetting, makes a huge moral difference.

[Mr Quatro]

at the moment of death that's who you are forever ...

let the poor man rest in peace ... if Haplo died right now he would ... ria
(rest in anger)

[soopaman2]

Alot of anger towards him. I guess fighting Aparthied is bad? any of you walk a mile in his shoes? Aparthied made our segregated drinking fountains look like black utopia, South Africa sucked for blacks.....and it was their native land....

Believer that American slavery was right and the union commited war crimes?

Pretty much the same thing, I am sorry equality of man is so hard to believe in, it is, that is why Mandela and others had to take such extreme measures.

Such Rascism.

Sorry to offend anyones white supremacy. Must be the liberal in me, and I voted for the negroid president...2 times... Now whatcha gonna do?

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror); are perpetrated for a religious, political, or ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians).

Mandela and the AMK intentionally targeted non-combatants. (Magoo's Bar bombing is simply one example.) That makes him a terrorist.

Do you have any historical example where the French Resistance intentionally targeted civilians? I looked and found none, nor do I recall any.

Oh dear oh dear.
Magoo's bar bombing, or the "Why not bar" bombing. you really don't think do you.
Both the trial of Robert McBride(who sounds kinda white don't he) and the TRC hearing into the bombing found that the pub was among those targets in Durban chosen specifically because they were frequented by the state security services.

McBride was then instructed to identify other areas with high concentrations of "enemy personnel", whether they were on duty or not.

[soopaman2]

If Mandela was white he would be a hero to you, depite his tactics.


Maybe he was sick of Europeans trying to tell South Africa what to do...


No one critisizes America for breaking away from Britain, I see his movement as the same thing, a fight for freedom.

I am sure his tactics were bad, but WHAT EFFING RIGHT DOES EUROPE (yes Europe , you all started this imperialistic crap, and have a hard time letting it go) HAVE TO INFLUENCE A SOVERIEGN NATION?

Why does the Boer oppression endear so many outside of S Africa so much., mad you lost the territory? You lost the 13 colonies too, come take those back tough colonist Euro guys?


Leave them alone! For real, what interest is there for you besides a 200 year old imperialistic pissing contest.

(EDIT: So many people who minimize what Mandela did, it pisses me off. sorry.)

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

sorry.

It's cool.

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

Alot of anger towards him. I guess fighting Aparthied is bad? any of you walk a mile in his shoes? Aparthied made our segregated drinking fountains look like black utopia, South Africa sucked for blacks.....and it was their native land....

Believer that American slavery was right and the union commited war crimes?

Pretty much the same thing, I am sorry equality of man is so hard to believe in, it is, that is why Mandela and others had to take such extreme measures.

Such Rascism.

Sorry to offend anyones white supremacy. Must be the liberal in me, and I voted for the negroid president...2 times... Now whatcha gonna do?

So you call it racist when 92% of deaths were "black on black"? Or is it that I am a racist for pointing out that Mandela and the ANC were more about killing their political competition than they were about actually ending apartheid? It has nothing to do with "white supremacy" - isn't it funny the people that want to elevate Mandela are the ones that scream racist. He killed whites and blacks - and he killed more blacks than he did whites. Does that make HIM racist?

What your pissed about is that I won't respect a murdering thug who is held up as a hero. Well guess what - I don't think much of Che Guevara either. Or Trotsky, Pol Pot, Masu, Mariam, Chavez, Castro or Zedong either. The list goes on and on. Thugs who wanted power and would do whatever it took to get it.

So call me a racist if you like - it has nothing to do with race - it has to do with choices of action. If you call killing 3 women in a bar with a bomb heroism, then we have no common ground. If you call ordering murders from a jail cell - including "neclacing" where a tire was put around someone's neck (usually a black someone from a rival political gang!), filled with a flammable fuel and then lit on fire as a means of execution "heroism" or "fighting for freedom" - then there just is no reasoning with you.

[soopaman2]

Americas civil war had many victims (a million plus dead or wounded on both sides), not intended. But the result made for a free nation.

You got your reasons to hate him, and that is fine with me, but I got my reasons to like him, and I hope that is fine with you.

(in other words, we should agree to disagree )

The results of his work made for a non segregated society. Unless your into white supremacy in Africa, where whites are not native. See my point, we did not belong there, in the first place, telling those people what to do and how, that is my point.

How would you feel were it the other way around? Would you not rebel? We are 200 years past lords and kings, yet ...Nevermind...

And people think Americans have an unfair sense of supremacy, oughta look at how euros still try to play lord and conquerer, even when it is far far over for them

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

(in other words, we should agree to disagree )

I don't hate the man - I hate his actions and the propaganda put out to make him appear beatific. It may sound like I hate him, but I don't. I still wouldn't have much mercy for his soul - but then again, I believe my Creator is a lot bigger in that regard than I am, and I defer to whatever His judgment will be.

As for us agreeing to disagree - I could do that - except for the whole "racist" thing. Calling names and then going "well, can't we just get along" just doesn't sit well with me.

I am sure if I looked you in the eye, insulted you and then held out my hand and said "lets just agree to disagree, slimeball" you'd probably feel the same way.

It has nothing to do with "white supremacy"

When you defend a state that is built on its belief in white supremacy and post links to "Christian" fundamentalists who believe in white supremacy then it is about white supremacy.

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

I don't hate the man - I hate his actions and the propaganda put out to make him appear beatific. It may sound like I hate him, but I don't. I still wouldn't have much mercy for his soul - but then again, I believe my Creator is a lot bigger in that regard than I am, and I defer to whatever His judgment will be.

As for us agreeing to disagree - I could do that - except for the whole "racist" thing. Calling names and then going "well, can't we just get along" just doesn't sit well with me.

I am sure if I looked you in the eye, insulted you and then held out my hand and said "lets just agree to disagree, slimeball" you'd probably feel the same way.

Wow what a stretch.

Nice way to get out of being insensitive and putting it on me. I just asked you to walk a mile in his aparthied shoes.

How would you like to face rascism that made 1950-1960s america look tame?

You seem to subscribe to it when you defended his Boer Oppressors, so pardon my assumption to rascism.


I tried to be nice and extend a laurel branch, but we can debate this, and wreck each other verbally for awhile longer, I got it in me.

I acknowledged what he did wrong, but you never acknowledged what he did right. So who is being unreasonable here?

So mandela had no impact on world events, and deserves no praise, just scorn? Is that your point?

HE DID NOTHING FOR HIS COUNTRY, NOTHING?

(EDIT: all crap aside he is S Africas George Washington, and no outside opinion can take that from the sentiments of the people.

Once again, lets just agree to disagree, I will never see it your way, nor you mine.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

Americas civil war had many victims (a million plus dead or wounded on both sides), not intended. But the result made for a free nation.

Which was, as far as you mean slavery, a side-effect, and probably not really the intention, some letter quotes from Lincoln leave little doubt that the slaves was not that much a point of interest for him. The real intention was that Northern states wanted to socialize the debts they had accumulat, and demanded the southern states to pay for them. Which the South obviously did not like that much, and why should they - at that time it was no one-national union with a centralised one-governmet-fits-all. Why should the one who managed economy better, pay for the debts resulting from the other who wasted more than he could afford? there is a reason why the Southern economy and finance system was annihilated so mercilessly by the North. It was to destroy any possible basis for autonomy and to make sure the South could never afford to live independant from the North again.

Sounds familiar to you? You are right - history is repeating itself today. In EUpistan.

I have become extremely hesitent to see the freeing of slaves as a driving motive of the American civil war. It was about money, destroying local sovereignity and centralised power to strengthen control over the creation of money. Once that was secured, the age of real monumental spending frenzies began, slow at first, but with constantly growing pace. It lasts until today.

Slaves - who cares for slaves... pfffft... Not back then. Not today. We just have globalised the slave quarters, to not have them in our sights thta much.

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Which was, as far as you mean slavery, a side-effect, and probably not really the intention, some letter quotes from Lincoln leave little doubt that the slaves was not that much a point of interest for him. The real intention was that Northern states wanted to socialize the debts they had accumulat, and demanded the southern states to pay for them. Which the South obviously did not like that much, and why should they - and that time it was no one-national union with a centralised one-governmet-fits-all.

Sounds familiar to you? You are right - history is repeating itself today.

I have become extremely hesitent to see the freeing of slaves as a driving motive of the American civil war. It was about money, destroying local sovereignity and centralised power to strengthen control over the creation of money. Once that was secured, the age of real monumental spending frenzies began, slow at first, but with constantly growing pace. It lasts until today.

Slaves - who cares for slaves... pfffft... Not back then. Not today. We just have globalised the slave quarters, to not have them in our sights thta much.

Sadly we were the last nation to make slavery a bad thing. Every country has its demons, and even the most die hard of southerners know enslaving someone is wrong, they were slighted by being told what to do by the feds, and I get that, In time the south woulda abolished slavery on there own.


But look at what Mandela did, within a country that is way less tolerant than us. That was my point, some folks seem to think him as evil as Hitler, when all he wanted was an equal voice for natives.

The white Dutch Euros owned S africa for years, with staggering rascism, beyond what we could equate in America all he wanted was a voice. He earned that voice, and no matter how some do not like him, he is a voice of his people, something the people deserve, after being crapped on by Euro colonizers for hundreds of years...


Walk a mile in his shoes, we in America kicked Britains ass, for less.

(edit: who wants outsiders to dictate what is best for us?)

[em2nought]

I bet Hillary is happy she won't have to run against him for the democratic nomination.