Emperor to sign UN Arms Treaty while Congress in recess?

[Bubblehead1980]

Steve, you admit you agree with me often but you just don't like the way I say things.Well, I could word things differently but I don't believe in that, I type what I feel.I have to temper myself enough in academic settings, and even around certain friends.There are times I "go off" and say things as I feel the.The Emperor is a piece of garbage and this treaty is yet another danger as it will be used as a tool to further erode the Second Amendment.This is how I feel and the evidence is there.I appreciate your usual comments are not insults but more you dislike my tone or how I say it while several others who hold supportive views of the emperor and his ilk use the old tactic of ignore, belittle, marginalize instead of offering a response to my remarks..The style I have in debating etc is confrontational, very and perhaps it works better in person than an online forum but it's how I operate.I will attempt to tone it down slightly and see but feel you often single me out and allow insults to fly my way.

Basically, a lot of people in here are supportive of dear leader and dislike my remarks about him, I get it.I'll attempt to tone it down and see how it works.I assure you, they will continue to act the same.

This is how I feel and the evidence is there.I appreciate your usual comments are not insults but more you dislike my tone or how I say it while several others who hold supportive views of the emperor and his ilk use the old tactic of ignore, belittle, marginalize instead of offering a response to my remarks..

Your remarks are rubbish and your "evidence" is trash, it has easily been shown to be so right from page 1
A resident "right winger" also supplied all the relevant evidence which proves you are talking nonsense and that your claims about responses are utterly false
You marginalize yourself by carrying on with the same nonsense and ignoring the evidence provided.
Simple isn't it.
It isn't how you say it, its the nonsense that you say.

Basically, a lot of people in here are supportive of dear leader

Hey Bubbles, it is you who is taking the same stance as the dear leader in this topic

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Steve, you admit you agree with me often but you just don't like the way I say things.

Again you miss the point entirely. You call people names as if it is fact, when it's only your opinion. That's the big difference. What you feel about him personally has nothing to do with debating what he's doing. The latter helps people understand what you're trying to say, the former makes you look like the fringe folks

The Emperor is a piece of garbage

In your opinion. Do you have facts to support that? Is he truly acting like an emperor? Can you show specifics that are more than just opinion? The second phrase, "a piece of gargage", is libel. Of course since this isn't "official" print, it may be slander. Whichever it may be, it is still just your opinion. Stating it as fact once again makes you look like you're incapable of forming a rational argument, so you have to stoop to calling people names.

The object of a debate, outside of my usual Joubert quote, is to show why you're right and the other side is wrong. Name-calling is not debate. It's also not reason or logic. You often accuse the Liberals of using neither, but you need to show that you can actually use them yourself. Much of the time your "arguments" are nothing more than diatribe, which also has nothing to do with reason, logic or debate.

and this treaty is yet another danger as it will be used as a tool to further erode the Second Amendment.This is how I feel and the evidence is there.

That's an actual topic. You need to show facts that support your claim, but at least it's a claim.

the emperor and his ilk

There you fall into the simplistic habit of insult again. Demeaning words don't help your argument at all. They negativize it.

use the old tactic of ignore, belittle, marginalize instead of offering a response to my remarks..

Yet you don't seem to notice that you use the exact same tactics. How does that make you any better than them?

The style I have in debating etc is confrontational, very and perhaps it works better in person than an online forum but it's how I operate.I will attempt to tone it down slightly and see but feel you often single me out and allow insults to fly my way.

It's hard for you to talk about others insulting you when you do it first. No, you don't mention specific people, but you use phrases like "and his ilk", painting all Liberals with a very broad brush. That type of attack is no different than naming names. You may not notice that the people who insult you don't do it to others who believe the same as you do, but argue with them in a more respectful fashion. Well, some do, but you may notice that they do recieve negative attention from me when they do. Most of the negativism that comes your way is based on two things. First, the general superior tone and attacks on people rather than policies. Second is the fact that often you make claims but don't back them up with actual facts. That is also a part of debate.

Basically, a lot of people in here are supportive of dear leader and dislike my remarks about him

Most of the comments against you come from people who are more conservative than liberal. If you bothered to look you would also see that the small handful of Liberals here have actual debates with the Conservatives, and don't treat them the way they do you. This is not because you are more correct than the others, nor is it because you're more feisty. It's because you make a lot of claims that you don't back up well, and it's because you come across as arrogant without anything to support that attitude. Being dismissive and calling names does not make you look intelligent; in fact quite the opposite.

I get it.I'll attempt to tone it down and see how it works.I assure you, they will continue to act the same.

Some will, certainly. That's their loss. Others may surprise you.

We'll see.

[donna52522]

Sailor Steve,

I am a moderator in several groups in other forums.

I consider my job in those forums to keep language decent, as they are all age forums. I do not pick sides (become bias) to what the people say in those forums. I only step in and delete foul things, or when they become offensive to other members. In most forums we give three strikes. Many of the younger members test that and are quickly banned.

Now I don't know what kind of deal you have with Mr. Stevens, but if you wish me to leave just say so. I will go..and I will go quietly. I have no problems with this group or it's founder, in fact I love this site. But what I don't need is to know that every time I post Sailor Steve is going to pick my post apart and try to make me feel like a jerk for expressing my opinion.

D.

[Tchocky]

The only "picking apart" that I can see going on in this thread is a reaction to the first post.

In which case it is entirely merited. Bubblehead is neither especially young nor especially new, and his posting habits go well beyond any sort of "3 strikes" rule - if he were infringing any house rules. Which he isn't doing here and doesn't do.

There's no persecution or I think unfairness here. Neither is there anyone who looks like a jerk who didn't already. I'd say that making a personal jibe at a users grammatical sensitivities, then in the same post declaring that matter closed may come across as prickly. But nobody's a jerk.

Again, it's a discussion forum.

The argument that "nobody is obliged to respond" is sort of meaningless when applied to a discussion forum. The topic was posted to bring out a response. That the response isn't too favourable to Bubblehead1980 is neither here nor there.


Nobody needs a special deal with the site owner (by the way - huh?) in order to see that Bubblehead1980 could use some advice on how to get a point across. And I don't know where you're getting the idea that anybody wants you to leave either - every post you've made here has been responded to. Discussion.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by donna52522

but if you wish me to leave just say so. I will go..and I will go quietly.

Hey, I've never posted in response to you before, but see that thing underneath your avatar? That badge saying that you're the best of Subsim? That, to me, marks you out as an essential member of the community. If you leave, I'm sure that many people will be sad. Don't worry about Steve, that's just what he does. I've never seen him being mean to anybody. He picked apart most of my posts back in he day, and while I thought he was just being mean, it wasn't actually, and I learnt a lot from it.

Happy Hunting ma'am

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by donna52522

Now I don't know what kind of deal you have with Mr. Stevens, but if you wish me to leave just say so.

First, why would I want you to leave? I like you, and have from the start. My deal with Neal is that he tells me when I've gone too far, which is often.

But what I don't need is to know that every time I post Sailor Steve is going to pick my post apart and try to make me feel like a jerk for expressing my opinion.

You posted first to defend Bubblehead1980. That's not only fine, that's commendable. My response to you was purely defensive. That may have been an overreaction on my part, because looking at it again I see that your first post was in response to Mookiemookie, not me. I was wrong there and I apologize.

I was also out of line when I told Bubblehead that if it was up to me I would brig him every time he did that sort of thing. I said he should think himself lucky it's not up to me, but that also applies to me. If I was in charge there would probably be a lot less members.

And no, none of this is in response to anything Neal has said to me. The only thing he's asked me in this regard is why I respond to this kind of thread at all.

Your second response was on the money. Nobody has to read or respond to any post. My personal problem there is that that will never happen. People who disagree will argue, and people who think the post was less than it could have been will say so as well. Yes, my 'job' is to keep things clean and enforce the rules. The problem there is that I've been having this runaround with Bubblehead for far longer than I've been moderating. Sometimes I end up playing referee, warning or even infracting people who post insulting comments that don't even address the topic, but I do go after some of them more than others, not because I want to pick on them, but because I truly believe they could be better than that.

My real problem is that I like to talk to people, and sometimes I find it hard just to ignore them.

My response to your "forced conformity" comment was purely defensive. I'm not trying to make anybody conform to anything but the rules. At least I like to think that's the case. On the other hand when I see that somebody is what I think of as borderline trolling, I feel the need to say something, especially when I don't think he means it that way. I don't think you can have a proper debate when one of the parties is 100% convince he's right. I said long ago that if you think you know everything it's impossible for you to learn anything. Of course it's not my job to enforce proper debate either, but sometimes I truly do believe I can help. Most of the time I'm wrong, but I keep hoping.

So most of my responses to you were me thinking I was defending myself. If that came across to you as an attack, then I apologize. It wasn't meant that way; just the opposite.

Cybermat mentioned your Best Of Subsim badge. As I recall I was the one who nominated you in the first place. In case you're still wondering, that's what I think of you.

[Cybermat47]

This thread seems to be affecting some of the members here in a bad way. I called in an expert to give his opinion...

Originally Posted by My Expert AKA The Joker

If I post a thread about a new puppy, or practical jokes, everyone stays calm, because it's something everyone can agree on. But if I post a thread about how Obama is a tyrant...

Well then everyone loses their minds!

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Basically, a lot of people in here are supportive of dear leader and dislike my remarks about him, I get it.I'll attempt to tone it down and see how it works.I assure you, they will continue to act the same.

You see Bubblehead - this is where you have a little considering to do. Those who blindly support the "dear leader" don't care about the truth. No amount of reality is going to change their minds. Yell it from the mountaintops, they will simply cover their ears. The tone you use doesn't matter - to them.

Where it does matter - is to those on the fence. When you have an honest debate, instead of simply spew "dislike" or talking points that can be proven skewed or inaccurate - you turn those people on the fence, away from your side. The moment you resort to stretching the truth when the truth is evident if one merely glances at it - or the moment you start something out with vitriol - you become just one more yelling voice in the sea of yelling voices. Some pro, some con - but all just a big overlapping noise that convinces no one.

On the other hand, if you make a reasoned, fact based argument, you have a good shot at winning the day for your viewpoint. To paraphrase Rush Limbaugh - "Liberals can not win in the arena of ideas". Because of this, they yell and scream and insult and lie (No - not all of them - but the ones that get the media attention). They know they can't win in the arena of ideas or of truth, so they distract and count on volume instead of accuracy. When you resort to the same type of tactics - you end up getting discounted right along with rest.

It is folks (of either political "stripe") that can - either consistently or even occasionally - come to the arena of ideas (and truth) and argue their points and perspectives with reason and dignity - that not only win the day, but often find very common ground with their opponents. In those cases, it is surprising how often real solutions can be created. You also might learn that some on the "other side" are not so bad. For example, Mookie and I disagree on a LOT of things, but I have found that we usually are not nearly as far apart as one might imagine... Volume counts for less than substance to many.....

Or else you can be mistaken for, as Shakespeare once wrote and General Chang quoted like no other Master Thespian could have done:

"..... an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Don't be that guy.

[Takeda Shingen]

Here's a helpful flowchart that I've been referring to lately in an attempt to break my old habits of internet discourse. Very useful.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Here's a helpful flowchart that I've been referring to lately in an attempt to break my old habits of internet discourse. Very useful.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of an argument, and I quote from merriam-webster, a "discourse intended to persuade"?

Now, for me at least, the thing is, very seldomly has any discourse with anyone on the internet successfully persuaded me of anything. For me to change my mind about something I have already formed an opinion on, I have to do it myself. Nobody can do this for me. Least of all on internet forums. Frankly, there is always some degree of credibility that is lacking when conversing with a faceless person you have never met, who like everyone else, is using an assumed fictitious name.

(Insert "I saw it on the internet so it must be true" meme here)

I "assume" most people are the same way, if they realize it or not, or admit it or not. So i conclude that the reason for the back and forth, is only self justification. Personally I may argue my point once or twice, out of pride or conviction, but at some point it is best to just let it go because your not going to convince anyone of anything. Beyond that, there's always the ignore list.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

You see Bubblehead - this is where you have a little considering to do. Those who blindly support the "dear leader" don't care about the truth. No amount of reality is going to change their minds. Yell it from the mountaintops, they will simply cover their ears. The tone you use doesn't matter - to them.

Where it does matter - is to those on the fence. When you have an honest debate, instead of simply spew "dislike" or talking points that can be proven skewed or inaccurate - you turn those people on the fence, away from your side. The moment you resort to stretching the truth when the truth is evident if one merely glances at it - or the moment you start something out with vitriol - you become just one more yelling voice in the sea of yelling voices. Some pro, some con - but all just a big overlapping noise that convinces no one.

On the other hand, if you make a reasoned, fact based argument, you have a good shot at winning the day for your viewpoint. To paraphrase Rush Limbaugh - "Liberals can not win in the arena of ideas". Because of this, they yell and scream and insult and lie (No - not all of them - but the ones that get the media attention). They know they can't win in the arena of ideas or of truth, so they distract and count on volume instead of accuracy. When you resort to the same type of tactics - you end up getting discounted right along with rest.

It is folks (of either political "stripe") that can - either consistently or even occasionally - come to the arena of ideas (and truth) and argue their points and perspectives with reason and dignity - that not only win the day, but often find very common ground with their opponents. In those cases, it is surprising how often real solutions can be created. You also might learn that some on the "other side" are not so bad. For example, Mookie and I disagree on a LOT of things, but I have found that we usually are not nearly as far apart as one might imagine... Volume counts for less than substance to many.....

Or else you can be mistaken for, as Shakespeare once wrote and General Chang quoted like no other Master Thespian could have done:

"..... an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Don't be that guy.

The things I say are true though, that is why it is frustrating, the evidence has been there and is.

People who supported obama act so shocked by his actions, but it was so apparent even in 2008, all people had to do was READ.Onr could easily see the man is not someone who should be president as his entire life he has been opposed to what the US is. Now, watch people who continue to support him despite his failures.This is because don't want to admit they are wrong or are so brainwashed or hung up on certain identity issues(race, class etc) they can't see things objectively.No, I do not give up because I have watched people find the truth since 2008 and move away from him and the great source of evil known as the Democratic Party, I know for over 10 people, I managed to get them to look into things, and they changed their minds.Now, this is online forum so it's a bit more difficult.Definitely debate better in person and this being online forum, suppose I never take it as serious.

People on the fence annoy me as well, how, at this point, can you be on the fence? The crimes of this man are so apparent, so easy to see.I think of my mother(sadly) who just does not pay attention, she gets annoyed about obamacare etc as it affects business but she does not pay attention even as an educated person, she is more concerned with other things. I often see people on the fence as indecisive, wishy washy, unprincipled people who offer nothing to the process but yes, they are one's we must reach.

I can never agree with someone like mookie, everything is about race for him, or class, people like that are just not someone I can agree with.I worry about ALL citizens, regardless of what color they are or how much money because in the end, unless you fall in line with obama and his beliefs, you are the enemy and even then, as the press(his number 1 cheerleader) has found out, there is not loyalty for him, he does not care, he sees himself as above us all, much like an emperor no? That was the point of calling him an emperor, he acts like one, sees himself as one.

[razark]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

The things I say are true though, that is why it is frustrating, the evidence has been there and is.

No, you believe they are true. That doesn't make them so. Providing evidence is what you've been asked to do, and failed at. Providing evidence would demonstrate why you believe the things to be true, and possibly convince others.

Repeatedly failing to show evidence and repeatedly bringing in false evidence makes you the butt of jokes, not someone the can be argued with.

[soopaman2]

This could have been a so much more constructive thread if the OP did not taint the thread with rhetoric in the title.

I could care less what lame duck Obama tries to do...

But where where you and your Emporer titles when Bush was pushing through the Patriot act, and calling anyone who opposed him unpatriotic and getting them ostacized?

Leave the partisan nonsense at home. Obama is almost gone, just deal with it until then. Not like congress doesn't try to reverse everything he does anyways.

Good or bad.

What are you scared of? All Obama did was continue the same oppressive right taking away policy the other guys started.

Just yell at the telescreen when Emannuel Goldstein comes on, and you "might" not get hit by a drone.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

This could have been a so much more constructive thread if the OP did not taint the thread with rhetoric in the title.

I could care less what lame duck Obama tries to do...

But where where you and your Emporer titles when Bush was pushing through the Patriot act, and calling anyone who opposed him unpatriotic and getting them ostacized?

Leave the partisan nonsense at home. Obama is almost gone, just deal with it until then. Not like congress doesn't try to reverse everything he does anyways.

Good or bad.

What are you scared of? All Obama did was continue the same oppressive right taking away policy the other guys started.

Just yell at the telescreen when Emannuel Goldstein comes on, and you "might" not get hit by a drone.

I was much younger when Bush was elected, when 9/11 happened and was not as aware of things.I supported him and did have a problem with the PATRIOT Act from day one. Funny thing was, Bush was at his core, a good person, an American, who had the best interest at heart.Bush's problem was he was not an intellectual.Stupid? Absolutely not but he is not an intellectual and over his head, which is why he relied on Dick Cheney etc so much, Bush was more of a figurehead and did not act like an emperor so he did not deserve the title.Bush was not a marxist at his core.Essentially George Bush is a good man, but was not really qualified to be President and once there, he relied too much upon his neocon circle, including Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld etc. Best of intentions but was just out of his league.

No, Obama has taken it much further. Bush was not using drones on American citizens(to my knowledge) which as tantamount to summary executions, a denial of due process. Bush was not trying to take away the second amendment rights of americans.Bush was not fostering class and racial division as obama blatantly has done.Bush did not shove something such as obamacare down our throats. Bush was not a great president, his major mistake was the iraq war and allowing the neocons to influence him .

Your remarks about just sit back and let the lame duck go, dont worry are a bit naive.Obama is dangerous as long as he holds power and I assure you the big political fight will be in few years as his term ends, he will attempt to find a way to stay in office.Some manufacture crisis will occur, esp if the polls are not looking good for democrats. That is a large problem right now, so many americans take it for granted we will just weather the storm, get rid of him via the process and things will be okay.People like obama do not play by the rules, so we cant count on that.Plus, the damage he has done already will probably affect you and I for rest of our lives, his assault on healthcare is the number one thing.The evidence is already there what havoc this monstrosity of law is causing and will continue to cause and should he luck up and get the house back under dem control, we have much to worry about.


This is not partisanship, this is truth.I saw a thing the other day that said "When I was in school studying the holocaust, I always wondering how Hitler got 6 million people to follow blindly without a fight? Then I realized my fellow americans are taking the same path" I am not calling obama hitler, he has not earned that comparison as of yet.I am saying the way people underestimate the threat that he poses, amazes me.