U.S. Military ‘Power Grab’ Goes Into Effect

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

My trust in our government has diminished appreciably over the last 6 months, and continues to decline with each passing day.

I know things like this it makes you feel like your reading 1984.It is the removal of little things here and there the erosion of freedoms.Though Posse Comitatus is not a direct freedom it had a specific intent.Now the claim is that this will allow the government to help the population in times of need like natural disasters and acts of "terrorism"(which is conveniently definable). Yet it leaves a back door open and unlocked.And why the need to take these actions without the permission of state and local government? I would have no problem with a state requesting aid when needed but I see no need for it to be circumvented.Furthermore each state has its National Guard which the governor can call up under his or her own command without federalizing them it is a clear violation/circumvention of states rights.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Reading this thread, I can't help but remember that one of the local colleges in the county I live in, has the Wolverine as a mascot.

WOLVERINES!!!!

This is not good at all...I doubt it goes too far but there's always that chance. No matter how small the chance is, there's still a chance that it could happen. I'm not saying that every citizen needs to stock up and write up all their contingency plans but we need to stay informed. I'm by no means a political expert or anything but I think the Democratic Government is going to rip us apart.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

WOLVERINES!!!!

Just do yourself a favor and do not imitate the tactics displayed in that movie (the original have not viewed and do not plan to view the remake) they would get you killed fairly quickly.Instead use the tactics of the NLF(AKA Viet Cong) or to be frankly honest the Taliban.They employ excellent guerrilla warfare tactics.Death by one thousand cuts such a death is very frustrating to the enemy.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Just do yourself a favor and do not imitate the tactics displayed in that movie (the original have not viewed and do not plan to view the remake) they would get you killed fairly quickly.Instead use the tactics of the NLF(AKA Viet Cong) or to be frankly honest the Taliban.They employ excellent guerrilla warfare tactics.Death by one thousand cuts such a death is very frustrating to the enemy.

You don't have to tell me that twice!

The tactics they use in the movie suck. It makes for a good movie but it isn't practical.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

The Posse Comitatus act is irrelevant anymore when the Police are just as well armed and equipped as military soldiers. There's effectively no difference between them.

The Posse Comitatus Act is still relevant but not in the context you are using. Posse Comitatus does not in any way affect how the police can be armed. Only that the US military can not be used to enforce civil laws unless there is a waiver. PC is waived all the time, but each waiver is subjected to judicial review.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Platapus

The Posse Comitatus Act is still relevant but not in the context you are using. Posse Comitatus does not in any way affect how the police can be armed.

No, I get that part, and I wasn't saying that it did.

Only that the US military can not be used to enforce civil laws unless there is a waiver. PC is waived all the time, but each waiver is subjected to judicial review.

What I was getting at is that the idea behind the PCA is that a military force should not be used to enforce civil laws, but since the line between police and military is now so blurred, why even have it in the first place?

[Stealhead]

@Mookiemookie not to derail this thread or anything but upon reading your sig if a fart is a ghost of food that you ate then what is a burp? a poltergeist because it vocalizes.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

@Mookiemookie not to derail this thread or anything but upon reading your sig if a fart is a ghost of food that you ate then what is a burp? a poltergeist because it vocalizes.

Not bad...

BACK ON TOPIC!

Should we start up a prepper thread just in case?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Betonov

We're not talking about a third world dictatorship. I doubt giving the US army any more juristiction will cause a colapse of freedom.

It is no all-of-a-sudden collapse at all, but a slow moving, creeping process over a longer time, with careful preparation of the public and erosion by educating the correct thinking and encouraging the right mind by using fear.

Already ten years ago I posted that Europe turns into a planned economy with a a totalitarian centralist control - and that I see the US most likely shifting towards a totalitarian police state.

With this now, drones, internet regulation, electronic surveillance of all communication, trying to enforce the abandoning of coins and note in favour if pure digital payment and so on, I see no reason to alter my old opinion.

Historically seen, we live in the post-democratic era already. EU-crisis and war on terror only speed things up. Democracy is on the defense globally, and in substance saw constant decline since the past years already. Foreign countries turning "democratic" should not be judged by the mechanisms by which radical and totalitarian elements are voted into power. What counts by the end of the day, is the outcome, the final result. And seen that way, corruption and fanatism and fundamentalism have spread and pushed freedom back.

[mapuc]

Please help me out in this discussion

I have tried to read every post in this thread

BUT

There's a few things that I don't understand

Why should the President or the American Government put USA into some kind of state of emergency

There's absolutely no reason for it.

Markus

[CaptainMattJ.]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

No, I get that part, and I wasn't saying that it did.

What I was getting at is that the idea behind the PCA is that a military force should not be used to enforce civil laws, but since the line between police and military is now so blurred, why even have it in the first place?

There have been many situations, and many possible situations, where the average shotgun carried in most police cruisers isn't going to be enough to win a shootout. Instead of having our military perform hostage, shootout, and hold out takedowns, we have SWAT. They aren't called out very often, and the aren't patrolling the streets, they only respond to crisis situations, such as the shootout with Dorner.

There's plenty reason to have SWAT, and i dont understand why this is an issue. SWAT is not a military-grade law enforcement force. You think that the presence of submachine guns and rifles elevates them to military status? Civilians own AR-15s, the semi-automatic father of the m16, so civilains should own such a thing but law enforcement cannot? Because they have armor and armored trucks? SWAT is nowhere near military grade. Everything they have is necessary and useful.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

WOLVERINES!!!!

This is not good at all...I doubt it goes too far but there's always that chance. No matter how small the chance is, there's still a chance that it could happen. I'm not saying that every citizen needs to stock up and write up all their contingency plans but we need to stay informed. I'm by no means a political expert or anything but I think the Democratic Government is going to rip us apart.

What, you think I'm kidding?
http://www.wolverinegreen.com/

I do agree, the Democratic government is not good for the country in the long term. Granted a Republican government isn't much better, but i've come to believe the Democratic one will send us down the 1984 road a lot quicker.

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Just do yourself a favor and do not imitate the tactics displayed in that movie (the original have not viewed and do not plan to view the remake) they would get you killed fairly quickly.Instead use the tactics of the NLF(AKA Viet Cong) or to be frankly honest the Taliban.They employ excellent guerrilla warfare tactics.Death by one thousand cuts such a death is very frustrating to the enemy.

Great link. One thing to mention is there's alot of veterans who've gone on Permanent Civillian Status that have alot of afganistan and iraq experience to bring to a gureilla warfare table. They would infact be the best instructors for the untrained.

Another thing to mention is that our armed forces and police have families. They don't live in a bubble, but within the local communities. If police and military were to take up arms on the citizenry, they should be concerned about their families by way of reprisal. Police and Military also rely on the local communities in order to operate. If the local communites ceased to provide support, they wouldn't make it very far. This goes doubly so for the police. Thank god for the second amendment eh?

And yeah, the movie is lame by todays standards. The original is an 80's styled teenie booper flick. The remake I have steadfastly refused to watch.

Originally Posted by Skybird

It is no all-of-a-sudden collapse at all, but a slow moving, creeping process over a longer time, with careful preparation of the public and erosion by educating the correct thinking and encouraging the right mind by using fear.

I believe skybird is 100% correct here.

[Stealhead]

Don't count out the older guys that fought in Vietnam many of those guys are tough as nails and have many skills.My dad can train people to fight Ranger style and I have met Nam vets that make him look like a sissy.

The most cheese laden 80's movie relating to fighting an oppressor would have to be Rambo 3 the one where he goes to Afghanistan............. cheesetomic bomb.

I would love to to see a cheese free political view free movie about the US being taken over and the people fighting back one that is harsh like the movie "Come and See" similar concept but in that flick takes place in the USSR during WWII and protagonist is a Russian teenage partisan good but brutal film it makes "Shindler's List" seem like a kindergarten film.

That old Army flick I posted I think the basic concept is not very far fetched the Us would no doubt split into several factions like that.

Ex SF Green Berets are an interesting bunch for sure and seeing as their motto is "De Oppresso Liber" (To Free the Oppressed) most active duty ones would have trouble supporting actions against their own people.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

What, you think I'm kidding?

No. I believe you.

I do agree, the Democratic government is not good for the country in the long term. Granted a Republican government isn't much better, but i've come to believe the Democratic one will send us down the 1984 road a lot quicker.

We just need to get stablized at this point. I think we should have an Independent but Conservative government. We need to get rid of the electoral college and we need to reduce the power of the political parties. Republicans give us the better answer to the equation and yes they have an equal chance of eventually running us into the ground. We need people who know what they need to to and who will listen to the citizens.

Great link. One thing to mention is there's alot of veterans who've gone on Permanent Civillian Status that have alot of afganistan and iraq experience to bring to a gureilla warfare table. They would infact be the best instructors for the untrained.

Another thing to mention is that our armed forces and police have families. They don't live in a bubble, but within the local communities. If police and military were to take up arms on the citizenry, they should be concerned about their families by way of reprisal. Police and Military also rely on the local communities in order to operate. If the local communites ceased to provide support, they wouldn't make it very far. This goes doubly so for the police. Thank god for the second amendment eh?

This is an excellent point. The reason we have the 2nd Amendment is to protect against an oppressive government. If they send in the troops, we'll fight back. Sometimes when I get bored, I think about different What If scenarios to pass the time. I've got a pretty darn good zombie survival plan and I'm still formulating my Red Dawn plan. The thing is, no plan survives first contact with the enemy.

And yeah, the movie is lame by todays standards. The original is an 80's styled teenie booper flick. The remake I have steadfastly refused to watch.

I saw the remake for free on canned food drive day at the movie theater. It sucked if you want a realistic scenario. Otherwise, it was decent. The one thing I hated the most was the acting. Chris Hemsworth is good but that's it. Nobody else can give a convincing line in the movie. Compared to the original, it sucked bigtime. The only thing I hated about the original was that it involved the Cubans. If you look at these as fiction and you know going in that it's going to be a tactical letdown, you can enjoy them. I like the concept. It makes for a hell of a good story but if you were to do it for real it would need to play out a little different.

[Stealhead]

Actually the fact that it involved Cubans did make a bit of sense the Soviets would have to use Cuba as an FOB for its airborne forces to be able to load up on IL-76s and drop over the US.

If you take into consideration the political view prevalent amongst more right wing conservatives during the 1980's the original film makes a lot of sense.At that time the US government was supporting the Contras who where fighting communist Sandinista forces in Nicaragua.It was the 1980's version of the "Domino Theory".In fact in the film the Sandinista's won and have control of Nicaragua.

There is also a scene in the film where they go to all the local gun stores and gather up the ATF form 4473s so they can find gun owners.The things that I find a bit silly about Red Dawn is that it claims that all of the European nations left NATO which would never happen.But they did that because European governments where seen as being socialist and perhaps willing to deal with the Soviets if pushed a very right wing fear and also in line with the general view that a socialist viewpoint is weak and unwilling to face a military threat if pushed.The other factor that I dislike is how the insurgent force never grows in size in reality insurgencies tend to grow over time.

I have read that the writers of Red Dawn wanted to produce a "Right Wing" counter to the film "The Day After"(which actually has no clear political viewpoint) this film was shown on Tv in 1983 and Ronald Regan actually viewed an unedited version before it aired and it did make an impression on him.As far as I am aware Mr. Regan never viewed Red Dawn."The Day After" is much more realistic and deals with a nuclear war between the USA and the USSR.The beginning scenes where it shows military people inside a missile silo and at a B-52 base is actually real life footage filmed for a documentary a few years earlier the attack scene in TDA is also fairly accurate they first target the missile silos and before that they hit the area with an EMP from a warhead that detonates a high altitude at the same time they target the B-52 bases and submarine ports."The Day After" is a fairly good 80's war film though it does lack the culty-ness of "Red Dawn".

In the Film TDA the Soviets force the US to capitulate because the Soviets achieve a first strike and have destroyed the US armed forces offensive capabilities this part of the plot would have had an effect on Mr.Regan because he wanted to protect the United States from exactly such an event actually occurring that why he favored SDI so strongly of course he had this idea before TDA even filmed.Ask your history teacher about all that and and the Contras but dont give any clues just ask about Nicaragua and SDI.

The other failing of "Red Dawn" is that most people see it as being anti-government rather than anti-Soviet which was not the writers intent.People like "Red Dawn" because an oppressive government is being opposed by force.If they where to make a film about American citizens resisting an aggressively oppressive government it would sell like hot cakes.