Free will. Free will? - Page 2

Armistead · 03-13-13, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betonov

He knows the outcome, but doesn't change/control our will

The bigger question is, what is our will and how free are we to decide it? Which goes to he created evil for a purpose to make us failed beings, but still our eternal fate rest on our decisions. Also seems that most don't choose God willingly, but simply out of fear of being tortured by him for all eternity, so in that, fear as a factor plays a role in our decision. I could say I'm in love with a girl, I could place a gun against her head and tell her if she doesn't say she loves me, I will shoot. She will say she loves me out of fear.

Simply, they're many factors in our make up, not of our choosing, that makes us choose one way or the other. Is that true free will?

Takeda Shingen · 03-13-13, 01:55 PM

Thomas Aquinas give the commonly-held Catholic answer. Here's a good synopsis for those of you not willing to read the entire Summa Theologiae.

http://www.aquinasonline.com/Topics/freewill.html

August · 03-13-13, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The deeper question is whether your decision was really yours. I fall in love, I decide to get married. My free will or not? Could I have fallen in love with someone else? Could I have married someone else?

Why did I decide on this person and not another? I can claim I made the choice on my own and of my own will, but did I really? I regret mistakes I made in the past, but could I have done it differently? If I could have, why didn't I? If I couldn't have, where is the free will? Am I trapped in a life not of my own making? If that's true, then I truly am trapped. If not, then why can't I get it right? If I have free will, why didn't I do it better? If I don't, why not? Even everyday decisions are influenced by outside factors. It's warm enough today, so I'm going for a bike ride. Why don't I ride when it's colder? Because I don't like the cold? Is that true, or is it just an excuse to avoid riding? Am I riding today because I like to ride when it's warm or am I forcing myself to do something I don't really enjoy because I've convinced myself I should?

I've had the money for a car for several months now, yet I still don't have a car. Is that because I haven't found one that suits me? Is that just an excuse because my last car was wrecked due to a mistake on my part, and I'm secretly afraid to own one again? Should I just find the cheapest car that runs and call it good? Should I wait until just the right one comes along? Do I really have any say in the matter at all? Will my final choice be made through free will, or will I just accept what fate gives me and pretend it was my choice.

No pretending involved, it was your choice. Based on your life experiences and other outside factors you might lean one way or the other but in the end you still have to decide which road to take.

Armistead · 03-13-13, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

No pretending involved, it was your choice. Based on your life experiences and other outside factors you might lean one way or the other but in the end you still have to decide which road to take.

Yes and no. I think for many, they suffer so many previous factors that have effected their thinking process, they often make poor choices. I can't remember who said it, think a monk, "give me a child until 12 and I will have him for life." It often happens an abused child that hates the person that abused them becomes an abuser as an adult. A child that grows up surrounded by hate, seldom grows up to make a choice of love. We teach that as adults we have to make correct responsible choices, but it's not that simple.

We also know whatever religion your culture teaches, you will most likely follow it. If you or I was born in Iran, there is a 90% chance you will be Muslim, born in India or China, 90% chance to be Hindu or Buddhist.

August · 03-13-13, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

Yes and no. I think for many, they suffer so many previous factors that have effected their thinking process, they often make poor choices. I can't remember who said it, think a monk, "give me a child until 12 and I will have him for life." It often happens an abused child that hates the person that abused them becomes an abuser as an adult. A child that grows up surrounded by hate, seldom grows up to make a choice of love. We teach that as adults we have to make correct responsible choices, but it's not that simple.

Sounds to me like you think having free will means always making the "right" choice. Well part of having free will means being able to make the irresponsible choice, to marry the wrong woman, make the bad investment, heed bad advice or hang out with the wrong crowd.

Only if one completely removes a persons ability to choose then they still have free will to decide which option they will take.

Cybermat47 · 03-13-13, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betonov

But if my brains does the decision before me, without direct influence and completely on its own, that still makes it ''my free will'' since we are talking about MY brain working FREELY

That's exactly what I was thinking!

Skybird · 03-13-13, 04:26 PM

Free will in the context talked about by Harris, and in the context I usually base on, means not more and not less than the assumed freedom of man to chose between two or more alternatives. I would not go any further than this, because going further means, as I see it, to step on slippery ground.

Do we form such choices outside any brain context? Well, take away the brain, and what you are left with is a bunch of meat.

If there is the freedom to make a choice in the above meaning, thehn the question is: what is it that has this freedom?

If on the other hand the brain forms - by a pattern of complex predetermination, if you want - the decision on what the organism does, chooses, prefers next, and then afterwards the organism starts to interpret this as its "free decision" that was made without and outside of that pattern of complex predetermination: then this obviously has consequences for the way we understand ourselves, think of ourselves, and define ourselves.

On a sidenote, there is a comparable discussion, since the dawn of psychology and psychophysiology as academic disciplines in the 19th century: the relation between body and emotion. Does the body cry and produces tears in the eyes, because the person feels sadness - or does the body produce the emotion named sadness because it cries and produces tears in the eyes? When I started to study psychology in the early nineties, this question still was not finally answered.

Both issues - free will and emotions - obviously are closely linked to brain. Without a brain there is neither the one nor the other. The brain is what creates our conscience and our awareness. Our ego, our identity, our "self" - it results from brain's activity. Without brain, no "person", no individual.

I once heare dsombody saiyng "The brain is the greatest adventure for man in the entire universe". I full-heartly agree. Even the depth of space and the unembracable and unimaginable size of the universe - are conceptions formed in iur brains, and whether these conceptions have anything to do with somehign that we usually claim to be "outside" the skin's border of your bodies - the world beyond ourselves, we cannot even say for sure. I tend to consider it possible that space travelling also is a form of mind travelling since it is our conceptions of what we think "Space" is that we are dealing with. The inner space of mind, the outer space of stellar space - can we really be sure that it is two entities our qualities that meet here, the one observing and being aware of the other?

If one asks whether there is a free will, then the question necessarily arises: who is it who thinks to have a free will? And if one tends to answer that with something like that all that is just an immaterial condensate of physical variables and neural processes, a residual only, then the next question would be: what function for the organism does it serve, why is it there? Is the illusion of a free will maybe of any advantage for the organism that is not that naturally apparent to the eye?

Skybird · 03-13-13, 04:38 PM

Betonov, does the brain really ever work free of any previous inputs and experiences?

We all are products of our past.

frau kaleun · 03-13-13, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betonov

But if my brains does the decision before me

Silly man wabbit, thinks it's his brain making the decisions.

Sailor Steve · 03-13-13, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

No pretending involved, it was your choice.

You miss the point entirely, which was the question of how you know it was your choice to make. Are we really free to make that choice at all. It's one of the great philosophical debates of history. To say you believe one way or another is fine, but to couch it as a definitive answer indicates that you are convinced of something you don't really know.

The reason the debate has gone on for so long is that no one yet has come up with a provable definitive answer. There is nothing here but opinion. Mine happens to agree with yours, but that's still all it is.

As Joseph Joubert put it: "It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it."

August · 03-13-13, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

You miss the point entirely, which was the question of how you know it was your choice to make. Are we really free to make that choice at all. It's one of the great philosophical debates of history. To say you believe one way or another is fine, but to couch it as a definitive answer indicates that you are convinced of something you don't really know.

The reason the debate has gone on for so long is that no one yet has come up with a provable definitive answer. There is nothing here but opinion. Mine happens to agree with yours, but that's still all it is.

As Joseph Joubert put it: "It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it."

Bunch of hogwash if you ask me. Questioning your existence is a road that only leads to insanity.

Spoon 11th · 03-14-13, 01:55 AM

Nature rather than nurture is responsible for creating your personality, according to a study of twins which found that character is something you are born with.

Researchers from Edinburgh University studied more than 800 sets of identical and non-identical twins...

...the researchers found that identical twins were twice as likely as non-identical twins to share the same personality traits, suggesting that their DNA was having the greatest impact.

Genetics were most influential on people's sense of self-control and also affected their social and learning abilities and their sense of purpose.

"The biggest factor we found was self control. There was a big genetic difference in [people's ability to] restrain themselves and persist with things when they got difficult and react to challenges in a positive way."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/s...udy-shows.html

And here's skeptic's interpretation what the bible says about free will:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co...free_will.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/free.html

Skybird · 03-14-13, 06:47 AM

Let's leave bible and stuff like that out of this thread, else it will become ugly fast.

Skybird · 03-14-13, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

Silly man wabbit, thinks it's his brain making the decisions.

Catfish · 03-14-13, 08:08 AM

Free will. Free will?

sry for derailing, but you saw it coming and it all is kismet, you know

03-13-13, 04:26 PM	#22
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,698 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Free will in the context talked about by Harris, and in the context I usually base on, means not more and not less than the assumed freedom of man to chose between two or more alternatives. I would not go any further than this, because going further means, as I see it, to step on slippery ground. Do we form such choices outside any brain context? Well, take away the brain, and what you are left with is a bunch of meat. If there is the freedom to make a choice in the above meaning, thehn the question is: what is it that has this freedom? If on the other hand the brain forms - by a pattern of complex predetermination, if you want - the decision on what the organism does, chooses, prefers next, and then afterwards the organism starts to interpret this as its "free decision" that was made without and outside of that pattern of complex predetermination: then this obviously has consequences for the way we understand ourselves, think of ourselves, and define ourselves. On a sidenote, there is a comparable discussion, since the dawn of psychology and psychophysiology as academic disciplines in the 19th century: the relation between body and emotion. Does the body cry and produces tears in the eyes, because the person feels sadness - or does the body produce the emotion named sadness because it cries and produces tears in the eyes? When I started to study psychology in the early nineties, this question still was not finally answered. Both issues - free will and emotions - obviously are closely linked to brain. Without a brain there is neither the one nor the other. The brain is what creates our conscience and our awareness. Our ego, our identity, our "self" - it results from brain's activity. Without brain, no "person", no individual. I once heare dsombody saiyng "The brain is the greatest adventure for man in the entire universe". I full-heartly agree. Even the depth of space and the unembracable and unimaginable size of the universe - are conceptions formed in iur brains, and whether these conceptions have anything to do with somehign that we usually claim to be "outside" the skin's border of your bodies - the world beyond ourselves, we cannot even say for sure. I tend to consider it possible that space travelling also is a form of mind travelling since it is our conceptions of what we think "Space" is that we are dealing with. The inner space of mind, the outer space of stellar space - can we really be sure that it is two entities our qualities that meet here, the one observing and being aware of the other? If one asks whether there is a free will, then the question necessarily arises: who is it who thinks to have a free will? And if one tends to answer that with something like that all that is just an immaterial condensate of physical variables and neural processes, a residual only, then the next question would be: what function for the organism does it serve, why is it there? Is the illusion of a free will maybe of any advantage for the organism that is not that naturally apparent to the eye? __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

03-13-13, 04:38 PM	#23
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,698 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Betonov, does the brain really ever work free of any previous inputs and experiences? We all are products of our past. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

03-14-13, 06:47 AM	#28
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,698 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Let's leave bible and stuff like that out of this thread, else it will become ugly fast. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

03-13-13, 01:55 PM	#17
Takeda Shingen Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 8,643 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	Thomas Aquinas give the commonly-held Catholic answer. Here's a good synopsis for those of you not willing to read the entire Summa Theologiae. http://www.aquinasonline.com/Topics/freewill.html

03-14-13, 01:55 AM	#27
Spoon 11th Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Finland Posts: 689 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Nature rather than nurture is responsible for creating your personality, according to a study of twins which found that character is something you are born with. Researchers from Edinburgh University studied more than 800 sets of identical and non-identical twins... ...the researchers found that identical twins were twice as likely as non-identical twins to share the same personality traits, suggesting that their DNA was having the greatest impact. Genetics were most influential on people's sense of self-control and also affected their social and learning abilities and their sense of purpose. "The biggest factor we found was self control. There was a big genetic difference in [people's ability to] restrain themselves and persist with things when they got difficult and react to challenges in a positive way." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/s...udy-shows.html And here's skeptic's interpretation what the bible says about free will: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co...free_will.html http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/free.html

03-14-13, 08:08 AM	#30
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,799 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Free will. Free will? sry for derailing, but you saw it coming and it all is kismet, you know