Ephraim and Manasseh - Do you think they are England and America?

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Hottentot

As per your request, Steve, though it wasn't anything deeper than life. The original post to me didn't make much sense and frankly seemed to have an in-built idea that the world revolves around the English speaking world (could have been my imagination as well, but that was the initial impression I went by). So I instead offered an alternative theory of the world revolving around Finland, which didn't make any more sense either.

And as I said, neither of those "arguments" I proposed were my own. They were serious science to people who advocated them in the name of the 19th century Finnish nationalism. Even if I didn't mention it in that post, the Bible was a huge source for these folks as well. After all, they firmly believed (like most people back then in here) that the Bible contained the truth about the early history of the world among other things, and therefore it was only logical to try to find out how the newly formed Finnish people were related to Abraham. And unsurprisingly they managed to "find out" that the answer is: "directly", because it's of course the best answer you can get.

Lots of things can be proven. While that may have not been the original intention of this thread, still the original question to me wasn't much different from asking "are Finns descended from Abraham" or "Is Finnish the original language spoken before the Babel".

Enough of your book-learning witchery, Eurotrash. My fingers are firmly planted in both my ears and eyes, while a clip holds shut my nostrils. I will not have any of my senses subjected to this. I type this by mashing my jaw into the keyboard, like all true God-fearing patriots.

Note to Neal: We need a angry-pointing emoticon. It would have been awesome at the end of my rant.

[Hottentot]

I may be Eurotrash, but at least I know who my grand grand grand grand (insert mucho lots of "grand") grand daddy is.

Though now that this thread inspired me to go through my notes on this subject again, I see I made a little error: they didn't trace us to Abraham, but instead to Noah. Specifically the Finns are descended from Noah's grandson Magog. Oh well. I suppose that explains why we like building wooden boats and sailing them aimlessly around our lakes. Alcohol has nothing to do with the latter. No sirree!

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Hottentot

I may be Eurotrash, but at least I know who my grand grand grand grand (insert mucho lots of "grand") grand daddy is.

I know exactly who he is. My family tree is a straight line. Now, if you will excuse me, I need to brush my teeth; ol' chomper needs a scrubbin'.

Though now that this thread inspired me to go through my notes on this subject again, I see I made a little error: they didn't trace us to Abraham, but instead to Noah. Specifically the Finns are descended from Noah's grandson Magog. Oh well. I suppose that explains why we like building wooden boats and sailing them aimlessly around our lakes. Alcohol has nothing to do with the latter. No sirree!

I was always amused by Biblical names that didn't take. We could have mothers naming their boys Magog, Hazarmaveth and Arphaxad.

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

I was always amused by Biblical names that didn't take. We could have mothers naming their boys Magog, Hazarmaveth and Arphaxad.

As if we needed even more names based on the Bible. I have always found this site very fascinating when wanting to know the etymologies or the naming customs of different people. But it has also traced so many names back to the Bible that it's not even funny. Most of the Finnish ones as well.

Which, on the other hand, has convinced me that my parents intentionally played a practical joke on me when they gave me three names (instead of the usual two) of which not even one is derived from the Bible. Then again, my family in the ancient past also decided to choose a surname combined from two distinct landmarks which we don't really even have anywhere in the country, so I guess we just like doing everything backwards.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Simmy

I have checked both the pro and con side of this subject. Like the many samples I pointed out in my last post, none of which seem to have caught any ones eye. One the con side most who don't believe it simple state they don't believe it because they don't trust the bible to begin with or because the head of their church tells they not to believe it. More power to them. But as usual they can't really put up much of discussion but only finds ways of attacking what you say with little thought attached to it.

Not so fast. Wikipedia, however you feel about it, annotates and links it's sources. It has been you that has been doing the attacking what has been said. Thus far, the only proof that you have to back up your claims is your word. Now, it is fine if you don't think the conversation is worth continuing, but don't go trying to flip things around on your way out the door, because that is simply not true.

If a source is of little value...Or do we just believe anything in print?
That US News report you listed says right up front "Professors don't want students using it as a main source but admit it might be a good starting point"
I would agree with that, not everything in wikipedia is wrong. The trouble is many simply believe what's on the page.

You're doing exactly the same thing with the books that you mentioned, constrasted with your stated attitude toward wikipedia and National Geographic. You discard the evidence that does not support your view.

[MH]

An Israeli chief rabbi recognized them as a lost tribe in 2005 and about 1,700 moved to Israel before the government stopped giving them visas; now that Israel has reversed that policy, 7,200 more are expected to immigrate.




Dozens more Jews who are believed to be the descendants of a lost biblical Jewish tribe immigrated to Israel on Monday from their village in northeastern India.
The Bnei Menashe say they are descended from Jews banished from ancient Israel to India in the eighth century B.C. An Israeli chief rabbi recognized them as a lost tribe in 2005 and about 1,700 moved to Israel before the government stopped giving them visas.
Israel recently reversed that policy, agreeing to let the remaining 7,200 Bnei Menashe immigrate. Fifty-three arrived on Monday.
Nearly 300 more members of the community will arrive in the coming weeks, said Michael Freund, of the non-profit organization Shavei Israel, and an activist on their behalf.
The community, which lives in India's northeastern border states of Manipur and Mizoram have been practicing Judaism just as their ancestors did, including observing the Sabbath, keeping kosher, celebrating the festivals and following the laws of family purity.
"After waiting for thousands of years, our dream came true," said 26-year-old Lhing Lenchonz, who arrived with her husband and 8-month-old daughter.

Very cool people by the way.

So they had been hiding in India and now here.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Simmy

As usual when you bring up these kinds of things the train runs off the track in a hurry. People have a hard time focusing on one issue when it comes to the Bible or Politics.

Actually it was more a matter that we found the question so lame that we decided to have some fun instead.

It was a simple question. Do you think that Ephraim and Manasseh are England and the America?

And the simple answer is "No". Why? Because there is no real evidence that would lead anyone who can actually think to reach that conclusion. It's like Lost Atlantis and all the other half-science-half-religion gobbledygook.

Even if you believe the Bible implicitly there is nothing there to suggest that the "lost tribes" ended up anywhere outside of Persia and Assyria. Of course some of them would end up travelling, since a certain amount of people do that. But whole tribes becoming particular western nations? Not likely.

I have checked both the pro and con side of this subject. Like the many samples I pointed out in my last post, none of which seem to have caught any ones eye. One the con side most who don't believe it simple state they don't believe it because they don't trust the bible to begin with or because the head of their church tells they not to believe it. More power to them. But as usual they can't really put up much of discussion but only finds ways of attacking what you say with little thought attached to it.

On the other hand it's easy to denigrate a statement of opposition with that kind of dismissal. If every source presented gives nothing but make believe it doesn't need disproving.

If a source is of little value...Or do we just believe anything in print?
That US News report you listed says right up front "Professors don't want students using it as a main source but admit it might be a good starting point"
I would agree with that, not everything in wikipedia is wrong. The trouble is many simply believe what's on the page.

Part of the problem is that people who write books don't even have to answer to others, as Wiki writers do. Anybody can claim anything he wants in a book, and unless he shows real concrete evidence for his claims it's all hot air.

The list is many, but I doubt it's hundreds.

You miss the point.
Its about the primary source
Which version of the hundreds of versions do your listed writers use as their source?
Though your writers do undermine your case, Dickey was an avowed white supremacist and Allen thought queen Victoria was king of the jews.
Armstong and Collins just rehashed his work and put more emphasis on white anglo saxon protestant america.

Or to take this at another angle, what are your views on Gorilla199?
After all he uses the same primary source for his theories and is big into gathering of the nations and end time prophecies.

[Cybermat47]

You have an interesting theory, Simmy. I doubt that it's true, but I don't have any proof of your theory being incorrect.

[geetrue]

Originally Posted by Simmy

Which is what most people do when faced with a subject they know nothing about. Lets have fun...it was an honest question, and you consider it lame on what grounds?

Because you have no idea what is being talked about but it chalks up your post count?

I await the answer as to who made this claim.
As the bible itself says "test and prove all things".
So far you have attacked me personally, but have offered no proof.

Those are fighting words Simmy ... the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. St James brother of Jesus said so ...

Simmer down Simmy ... I can't save you now

You've gone and done the dirty deed

[Takeda Shingen]

First of all, Simmy, the only person getting worked up here is you. Calm it down.

Originally Posted by Simmy

WOW!!!
the only proof?????
Did you read, and it appears you did not, the list of things from the Bible that seem to show the connection to Ephraim and England? Funny how you never and that would be never answer the direct responds you demand.

Are you referring to post No. 24 where you took a pair of unrelated Bible verses and tried to use their differing nomenclature to say that they are England and America? Yeah, you are going to have to do better than that.

Now there are crazy people who claim all kinds of things.
I ask a simple question and get attacks without any plain simple answers. Talk about intolerance, look in a mirror.

I gave you two plain and simple answers, with proof and actual sources, but you said you didn't like them and then you got mad. Now you are saying that we are being intollerant because we don't buy what you are selling. I'm not sure if it is frustration over the idea not standing up to scrutiny or just poor sportsmanship, but it is not becoming.

You gave an opinion. We gave fact that countered the opinion, and somehow we are the closed-minded ones. Sheesh.

That would be the Bible!, do you have a hard time following along?

Well done, now since you are having a hard time following try again and this time answer.
Which version?

Show me where you think Dickey was a white supremacist? Out of what comic book did you read that? Show me or shut up. Your rambling as become some what boring!

Pick a title of hers, it is very very easy.
It ties right in with the rest of the gods chosen really jewish WASPs nonsense.

And if you knew anything about Bible Prophecy, and it is clear you do not, then you would of read, The promise of God to David that his lineage would always sit upon the throne until Christ returned to claim it. Do you see that throne anywhere in the world today?

Yeah , the coptic church of Abyssinia must have been pissed at their prophecies when the lion of Judah lost his throne, but don't worry they still hold the true ark of the covenant

That would be completely wrong.

No, they put the emphasis on the younger.

Your ignorance of biblical things is confusing since you seem to come off as some kind of expert.

Young man, you started out badly and got progressively worse.
You have faced a series of simple questions about your claims and come up short every time.
Did you really think all this was something "new" that people were unfamiliar with?
You have been on the backfoot since post #1

@tak

Are you referring to post No. 24 where you took a pair of unrelated Bible verses and tried to use their differing nomenclature to say that they are England and America? Yeah, you are going to have to do better than that.

Thats why I mentioned Gorilla 199, when he isn't taliking about reptilians and the hidden planet niburu he goes on about that too.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

@tak
Thats why I mentioned Gorilla 199, when he isn't taliking about reptilians and the hidden planet niburu he goes on about that too.

Ahh, Niburu. Didn't we have a guy show up here and go on about that a while back?

Ahh, Niburu. Didn't we have a guy show up here and go on about that a while back?

Yubba and planet X with the secret antarctic telescope I had paid for
Then there was someone with the alien spiral from the killer planet in scandanavia from the missile launch.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Simmy

That would be the Bible!, do you have a hard time following along? Yes in fact you do but the continued running off the track. How many of the books I listed have you read? Not many would be my guess.

Rudeness and insults will get you nowhere.

Show me where you think Dickey was a white supremacist? Out of what comic book did you read that?

If not a supremacist then at least an ardent segregationist.
http://thetencommandmentsministry.us...nd_segregation

Which is what most people do when faced with a subject they know nothing about. Lets have fun...it was an honest question, and you consider it lame on what grounds? Because you have no idea what is being talked about but it chalks up your post count?

Actually I devoted years of my life to Bible study, until I started to see the lack of evidence for pretty much everything it says. You say it was an honest question, and in your first post it seemed innocent enough. Then you claimed you weren't trying to push anything, but the more people questioned your sources the angrier you became, and the harder you pushed. When someone realized that it wasn't an 'honest' question at all, but an agenda you were trying to push, he decided that having a little fun was better than watching your head explode. So yeah, we took a little side trip, and all it did was make you even more angry.

What you haven't done is to discuss your sources rationally. Instead you've decided to rant and rave at people and accuse them of knowing nothing. You've made claims to knowledge, but so far you've been parroting different people who make these wild claims and trying to belittle anyone who would show that they have flaws.

Sure, you can try to make a link between Ephraim and Mannaseh being modern nations. Let's take a closer look at the verses you quoted in post 24:

Ephraim was to become a "company of nations" or as some translations have it, a "common wealth of nations. Manasseh, his big brother was to become a "great nation". Sound like anybody you've heard of?

This is the loosest of connections. In fact, there is none at all, and still you try to force it to fit. A "great nation" could be China, or Russia, or anything. Or it could just be a prophecy that the tribe would grow a lot in their own territory.

Judah didn't want to kill Joseph like some of his brothers did. He talked them into selling him into slavery in Egypt there by saving his life and later the lives of the entire family. Genesis37:20-28
Now today who are the only countries to support Israel (the Jews)?
That would be Britain and America.

And what exactly does the blessing on the sons of Joseph have anything to do with modern nations supporting Israel? None at all. You're trying to force-fit something into a place where it doesn't go, just so you can claim a descendency from "God's Chosen People", and you and I aren't descended from them, unless you happen to be Jewish. I know I'm not.

In Judges 12:5-6 The Gileadites seize the fords and ask if any wanting to cross if they are Ephraimites, if they say no they were then asked to say "Shibboleth" but if they were indeed Ephraimite they said "Sibboleth". They dropped the h because Ephraimites had a very hard time pronouncing h's. Seems the British have that same problem. For the Thames river they say Tames, for Thyme they say time and most drop the h out of schedule.

Now you're really reaching for something that isn't there. The British don't have a hard time pronouncing 'H's. Languages change over time. The two are totally unrelated. Are you next going to say that different pronunciations within America are due to ancient descendencies? I earlier said that your question was lame. You've done nothing to change that opinion. You claim to have biblical knowledge, yet you have no knowledge at all of how languages work. It has been shown that your DNA connection was bogus. It has been shown that while you claim not to be pushing anything and just find it interesting, the truth is that you are locked into this "theory" so hard that you become agitated and angry at anyone who actually challenges it.

Are you happier now that I got serious?