Is Westboro Baptist Church a hate group?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

Really? Some might view that as a breach of the 1st Amendment,a clause of which gaurantees Freedom of Religion.

And freedom from religion. That's what the religious crowd comfortably forgets to mention time and again. It also is about the obligation of the state to stay out of the business of propagating interests of religious groups and content of religious dogma.

Tax privileges for religious groups, parallel justice systems that replace the law code of the country, and state-collected religion taxes (as in Germany in case of Protestant and Catholic church), also have to go. Everywhere. Members and priests of religions are responsible before the law in the same way anyone else is. Religious groups have to pay the same taxes like anybody else, by the same rules. No public funding for religious institutions, may it be temples, may it be attached social services. Groups and churches have to finance themselves by donations of its members or what the members agree to pay in mandatory membership fees.

No tax evasion for the rich. No special status for the religious. Both are as equal before the law as any ordinary citizen not being rich and not having a club card. No public funding.

And in case I have not said it before: no public funding. Neither directly nor indirectly.

[Cybermat47]

^^^^^^^

No, it's Freedom of Religion, which means that the Government will not excessively involve itself in Religion. Removing the tax-exempt status could be seen as a breach of that.

[Cybermat47]

Also, the 14th Amendment ensures that people will not be prosecuted for their Religion (or lack of). Removing the tax exempt status could be seen by some as a break of that.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

^^^^^^^

No, it's Freedom of Religion, which means that the Government will not excessively involve itself in Religion. Removing the tax-exempt status could be seen as a breach of that.

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

Also, the 14th Amendment ensures that people will not be prosecuted for their Religion (or lack of). Removing the tax exempt status could be seen by some as a break of that.

Now you're bordering on the ridiculous. Some people might try to claim that, but they would be wrong. Tax-exempt status is a special allotment, not an equal right, or a freedom. Removing it does not involve persecution or prosecution.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Now you're bordering on the ridiculous. Removing it does not involve persecution or prosecution.

Yeah, you're right.

[soopaman2]

Let me put this in a simple way most any of us can understand.

Their tagline is "god hates Fags"

They go anywhere, where they and their inbred family can get attention.

Kinda reminds me of a deliverance kinda family, or a Texas Chainsaw Massacre kinda fellowship. Either way, I hope I am not pulled over in that part of town.

(I would rather deal with our gun happy police)

[Jimbuna]

No comment

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

^^^^^^^

No, it's Freedom of Religion,

Which necessarily includes the right to stay free from any religion, not just some, but all. You cannot have a freedom of religious practice without the freedom to no need to care for religion, no matter which one, at all. That's why the state shall not support any bills and law-making on behalf of interest-lobbying for any religions there are.

which means that the Government will not excessively involve itself in Religion.

No, it is not that the state should not engage in exessive involvement of religion, but should not engage in any engagement on behalf of religion at all.

It seems to me you have not thought your line of thought to the logical end, or do not want to do so. What you imply, in the end leads to nothing else but discrimination and two-class-system founded on a dominant religions' claims.

I refuse to accept such special status being given to religions, no matter their name. Your freedom ends where you start to limit mine and claim your freedom justifies that. But it does not justify it.

Keep thy relgion to thyself. Don'T bother others with it. Do not expect others paying special attention to it or willing it to be given special rights, priviliges, and special freedoms.

Regarding parallel justice systems, you obviously do not know about the Catholic church is running a parallel justice system of church law that in parts overrules the law of the country, that Islam practices - also in Western countries - a system of parallel justice that boycotts the legal system of the state and establishes one based on Shariah, and that Jews also know the idea of such a parallel justice systems. You also ignore that on certain issues like circumcision these religions demand immunity from certain laws that would punish everybody doing the same acts, but not claiming protection of religious special status for it.

Nice double standards.

No special rights, no priviliges, no special status for religions. Religions behave the worse the more these things are given to it. According chapters of history since millenia time and again turn out to be extremely brutal, barbaric, brain-killing and intolerant. Religions are to be tolerated only in situations of tight control and superivision, being practiced only in small doses, so that they cannot brake out and turn the world into a hellhouse once again.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Keep thy relgion to thyself. Don'T bother others with it.

I tend to agree about tax-exemptions for belief, but here you are insisting on limiting freedom of speech. You can turn anyone away from your own door, and you can tell anyone who approaches you in public to leave you alone. You cannot make a law preventing them from trying to talk to you.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I tend to agree about tax-exemptions for belief, but here you are insisting on limiting freedom of speech. You can turn anyone away from your own door, and you can tell anyone who approaches you in public to leave you alone. You cannot make a law preventing them from trying to talk to you.

Being called at home for advertising something once or twice a year, is nothing I keep my mind busy with.

Being called several times per week, seeing campaigns by the according companies to change laws on behalf of their interests and people not buying them getting discriminated and demanded to be stripped of freedoms and rights that others take for granted for themselves - that is something different.

Yes, I demand not to be approached constantly as long as I have not asked and have not invited them. I understand missionising to be an act of aggression. Even more so since it is one of its principles not to encourage questions and critical reflection, but to paralyse both and instead push a pre-fabricated message along the neurons's axons.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Skybird

instead push a pre-fabricated message along the neurons's axons.

A pre-fabricated message...telling you to love everybody, which is what most people already do, is something that you're sick and tired of?

[soopaman2]

Where does it end?

Where is our right to strike back?

Their "god hates fags" crap echoed over so many funerals of American war dead, Where is my justice? Where is my fair play?

These people blame all the ills of American society on Homosexuals, seriously???

When I blame all our ills on religious Christian extremists.


So it does not end, they blame me, I blame them, though in this particular case, the idiocy is clearly on their side. (for once)

Jesus taught above all, forgiveness.

The one thing religious extremists like this lack, and the eventual downfall of America, mark my words.


Edit: for the record, pork and shellfish is off limits too, but the queer haters never bring that up when they quote Leviticus and Deutoronomy, as well as sleeping with an unclean woman, (on the rag) something we all did.

I have a feeling someone will be along to clean this up and chastize my bluntness, since I am no friend of mods around here. (Yeah you,)

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

A pre-fabricated message...telling you to love everybody, which is what most people already do, is something that you're sick and tired of?

Oh the irony in this question.

The answer cannot be any different than "Yes"...!

Serious now. I refuse to love everybody for sure. It's a violation of my sense of reason to love jst everybody, and it also is beyond my capacity and strength to love 7 billion people, counting. Let's be honest, all the world is a little too much for our human shoulders, let's chose some more realistic proportions then. I like some people - and others I don't. I tolerate some people - and some I don't. And I believe in the good of a some people - but not in something good in all people. Some are to be handled with care - some are just scum.

And many religious sectarians tell you that you will be loved only if you believe the right things - theirs. Many institutions do that, too, and threaten you with hellfire and eternal doom if you don't.

And be honest - does it really need a religion to tell you to treat the other friendly if he treats you friendly, too? Haven't you already come to that idea all by yourself, long before the first religion knocked on your door?

Religious dogma of this or that sect, school, dogma - it all is prefabricated stuff for sure, tailored to support the club'S claim for power, control over people and their minds, and special status given to them and demands announced that all other should believe what they believe, else...! Superstitious retaliation in the next life at best, oppression and discrimination and progroms in already this profane present reality at worst. Save me!

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

A pre-fabricated message...telling you to love everybody, which is what most people already do, is something that you're sick and tired of?

That is not what religious proselytizers say...none of them. They try to convince you that their way of belief is the only way, and that you need to join them. The message of love is almost never mentioned. Perhaps at your young age you've never been aggressively approached by dozens of different persuasions of believers over a period of several years, but once you're an adult you will find all types of people trying to convince you that your way is wrong and their way is right.

To be honest, I sympathize with them up to a point, since if you truly believe that not believing as you do results in a quick trip to hell then you want to save as many people from that fate as you can, but it does get old after awhile.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I mean not needing to constantly defend my freedom against claims for more freedom and rights and more influence by religions, based on religious dogma.

Originally Posted by Skybird

Being called at home for advertising something once or twice a year, is nothing I keep my mind busy with.

Being called several times per week, seeing campaigns by the according companies to change laws on behalf of their interests and people not buying them getting discriminated and demanded to be stripped of freedoms and rights that others take for granted for themselves - that is something different.

I knew exactly what you meant, and to a point I agree with you. I was just point out that there are religious types who believe that "freedom from religion" means taking away their right to worship what they want.

Other than that, we are in accordance. I think we just disagree about where to draw that line.