Power of the machine gun?

[=SE=Sova]

Yes,lol.It is nice fun to hiting specific places and targets at ship with gun and watching parts falling off.
Flak gun also can make damage to an "light armored" targets,like life boats,trucks,light armored vehicles...
I played this mission again,same conditions.Enemy was very precision with deck machine gun.I have been hit with first tracer.Than second and third.I had few man wounded,heavy flooding,periscope damage,diesel engines damaged,electic motors damaged,main pump damaged,under surface propulsion not funkcional...All that at 2 500 meters distance.
It is interesting that enemy made it to see 0,5 meters extended periscope at 2500 meters,estimate range in second and bee so precision.
I think Russian are not able to do it with BMP-2 infatry fighting vehicle with A42A canon and laser range finder.
Watch at youtube how soldiers firing at somalian pirates from close range and how thay missing.We are talking abouth 2012 year,compuers,lasers,hi teck weapons and aiming systems.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by =SE=Sova

It is interesting that enemy made it to see 0,5 meters extended periscope at 2500 meters,estimate range in second and bee so precision.

You are correct. Naval gunnery has been described as extremely imprecise. Machine guns are also noted for missing a lot. Combine the two and you've got only a tiny chance of hitting anything at more than 500 meters, and even that's going to have more to do with luck than skill.

[gap]

Interesting topic. Obviously SH5 wepaons/armor system requires a general rebalance.

Out of curiosity, Sova, wich kind of machine gun made that much damage to your sub?

sh4 and sh5 the "sniper" accuracy of all guns is and has been rediculous


the sad thing is a lot of modders dont care because they like it to be hard to survive things but IMO its better to be as realistic with damage as you can get which includes weapon damage and accuracy

[gap]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

You are correct. Naval gunnery has been described as extremely imprecise. Machine guns are also noted for missing a lot. Combine the two and you've got only a tiny chance of hitting anything at more than 500 meters, and even that's going to have more to do with luck than skill.

Originally Posted by Webster

sh4 and sh5 the "sniper" accuracy of all guns is and has been rediculous

In guns_radars_01.sim there are 3 parameters per gun that could affect their dispersion/accuracy. They are:

• Restr_dist (in meters): stock settings range from 100 to 1000; in general, bigger figures are applied to bigger calibers.
• Trav. tolerance and Elev. tolerance (in degrees?): stock settings for AI guns are invariably 1 for both parameters. U-boat's Flak guns got 15/15. U-boat's Deck gun: 0.75/0.75.

I've been digging in past threads of SHIII-IV forums for an explaination on what these parameters actually do, but couldn't find any clear answer. If anyone got time for fiddling with them, I can provide quick instructions on how to edit them in goblin editor, if needed.

Originally Posted by Webster

the sad thing is a lot of modders dont care because they like it to be hard to survive things but IMO its better to be as realistic with damage as you can get which includes weapon damage and accuracy

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...29#post1935329

[THE_MASK]

What if you add some sort of controller to the sim like sinking effects ?

[troopie]

Originally Posted by gap

If anyone got time for fiddling with them, I can provide quick instructions on how to edit them in goblin editor, if needed.

I'll have a crack at this gap; it's about time I made a meaningful contribution. I'll be needing those instructions though, I'll send you a PM.

Originally Posted by gap

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...29#post1935329

I'll try and get involved in this one too, if you're still looking fo help.

[gap]

Originally Posted by sober

What if you add some sort of controller to the sim like sinking effects ?

What do you mean, sober
As far as I know the sinking of whatever unit is controlled by its .zon file, and by its respective zones in zones.cfg

Originally Posted by troopie

I'll have a crack at this gap; it's about time I made a meaningful contribution. I'll be needing those instructions though, I'll send you a PM.

Excellent resolution, troopie

Before you start, beware that there's a couple of extra settings which for sure affects global AI guns aiming, separately for cannons and AA guns. These parameters are found in sim.cfg (data/cfg folder), respectively under [AI Cannons] and [AI AA guns] headers, and they are called 'Max error angle'. In stock game they are set respectively to 3 and 4.5 deg, but IRAI changes this figure to 4.5 for both, which apparently is still not enough, despite the fact that, not taking in consideration elevation, an error of 4.5 deg should lead enemy ships to a maximum traverse error as high as 118 m to the right or to the left @ a range of 1.5 km

For editing sim.cfg you only need notepad, but later today I will draw up a short tutorial on modding the remaining parameters in the sm file.

Originally Posted by troopie

I'll try and get involved in this one too, if you're still looking fo help.

Indeed I need for help, though being working on some improvements of Dynamic Environment, I have temporarily left aside this project.

Your partecipation in it could give it a new impulse

[gap]

Here we are

for a start, you will need for one or more test missions, to test your changes in game.
At first, you can use one of the historical missions coming with the game, or one of the test missions included in many mods available for SH5. At some point you will probably need for a mission especially designed. You can ask me to create it for you, or you can do it by yourself using Mission Editor. Following the tutorial posted in this thread you will learn all you need to know in order to create a simple mission in 5 minutes.

The second step is locating the ships featured in the test mission you have picked, and identifying their guns.
Surface units are located in the data/Sea folder. Each subsfolder in that path is a single unit. Their names are often quite unequivocal on the unit that they are standing for: there is a prefix, describing the unit type (see below), followed by the name of the unit/class.

NAGC = Amphibious ship
NAMC / NTR = Merchant raider / Auxiliary cruiser
NAO = Supply vessel
NBB = Battleship
NBC = Battlecruiser
NCA = Heavy cruiser
NCL = Light cruiser
NCO = Corvette
NCV = Aircraft carrier
NCVE = Escort carrier
NDD = Destroyer
NDE = Escort destroyer / Frigate
NFF = Sloop
NK* / NLL / NVV = Cargo ship
NLS = Landing craft
NO* = Oiler / Tanker
NPC = Patrol boat / Torpedo boat
NPH / NPL / NPP = Ocean liner / Troop transport
Nrtw = Naval trawler
NSC = Submarine chaser

Should you need for further evidence on the identity of any ship, open its cfg file (within its respective folder), copy her ClassName (in the first row), and search for it in Names.cfg (located id data/Roster): the name after the '=' sign is the one shown in game, when you identify the unit

In order to know which guns each unit is equipped with, you should open its .eqp file with notepad, and take note of LinkNames under NodeNames that are starting with a 'M' (main guns), with a 'A' (secondary guns), or with a 'L' (light guns and, more often, searchlights). Each NodeName stands for a single bone in the 3dmodel, i.e. a set of coordinates designing a single gun platform aboard the unit. StartDate and EndDate (in yyyymmdd format) will tell you the time span that each platform is equipped with that given gun (outside this timespan the platform will be either empty or occupied by another gun).

It is now time to open Goblin Editor.
Before doing it, create a new mod, containing the following files: guns_radars_01.GR2 and guns_radars_01.sim (path: data/Library/ShipPart). Remember to reproduce the same path in your mod, if you want to enable it using JSGME. After doing it, follow the below steps:

• run GoblinEditorApp.exe (found in SH5main folder);
• if it is the first time you are using Goblin Editor, you should set it according to the instructions in this tutorial;
• menu file => open => select guns_radars_01.GR2;
• menu file => merge => select guns_radars_01.sim (pointing to the file you had previously put into your test mod);
• at this point, the project tree (Tool => Show Project Tree, if it is not visible from the beginning) should display the guns coming with stock game. Double click on any of them for editing its properties;
• in the next window (existing behaviors), select the wpn_Cannon controller, for displaying its properties in Edit behavior window (on the right);
• the restr_dist parameter is found under obj_turret => Debug (click on the + symbols for expanding the tree). On top of it there's another parameter called show_restr. By default it is set to No. Try setting it to yes. Once in game it should show graphically the effect of restr_dist;
• the trav and elev_tolerance parameters are found under Fire;
• once fininished with your changes close the edit behaviors window. You will notice that guns_radars_01.sim entries have become red, meaning that there are unsaved changes on this file;
• repeat the same steps for each gun you want to edit;
• for saving the changes, right click on any red entry in Project Tree, under guns_radars_01.sim, and selcet 'Save'. That's all

In game:
you might want to test your changes under different conditions. New UIs lets you to set many mission related parameters (date, hour, rain, fog, etc.). Rememeber to backup the mission, if you want to retrieve it to its previous settings (especially important for stock historical missions).

NOTE:

if Goblin Editor's selection boxes are flickering, close the program, right click on GoblinEditorApp.exe => Compatibility window => Disable visual themes.

The above instructions are relative to stock ships/guns. Things are slightly different for imported units, but for the moment I suggest you to stick to GR2 units/guns only.

[troopie]

Originally Posted by gap

Before you start, beware that there's a couple of extra settings which for sure affects global AI guns aiming, separately for cannons and AA guns. These parameters are found in sim.cfg (data/cfg folder), respectively under [AI Cannons] and [AI AA guns] headers, and they are called 'Max error angle'. In stock game they are set respectively to 3 and 4.5 deg, but IRAI changes this figure to 4.5 for both, which apparently is still not enough, despite the fact that, not taking in consideration elevation, an error of 4.5 deg should lead enemy ships to a maximum traverse error as high as 118 m to the right or to the left @ a range of 1.5 km

So is this to say that if I'm the target, the AI could accidently aim up to 4.5 deg off to the right of my actual position and if so, the shell would land 118m away from me (if I was 1.5 k's away)? I'm too lazy to do the trigonometry. Does this same factor apply to both elevation and traverse?

Is a modifyer applied over this factor to reflect crew skill level?

My stock file is showing 5deg for AA btw.

Originally Posted by volodya61

Chinese sailor

Cheers! At least it doesn't say anything derogatory like.. 'serial pest' or something

[troopie]

Originally Posted by gap

Following the tutorial posted in this thread you will learn all you need to know in order to create a simple mission in 5 minutes.

Okay well, this is rather embarrssing but, as far as file structure goes, I found the 'mission editor' tut thoroughly confusing, and consistently contradictory! Nothing against the author, probly more of a reflection of my I.Q. Anyway after much experimenting I've got my test mission underway but now I'm suffering a bad case of the X-boats!

Originally Posted by gap

Before you start, beware that there's a couple of extra settings which for sure affects global AI guns aiming, separately for cannons and AA guns. These parameters are found in sim.cfg (data/cfg folder), respectively under [AI Cannons] and [AI AA guns] headers, and they are called 'Max error angle'. In stock game they are set respectively to 3 and 4.5 deg, but IRAI changes this figure to 4.5 for both, which apparently is still not enough, despite the fact that, not taking in consideration elevation, an error of 4.5 deg should lead enemy ships to a maximum traverse error as high as 118 m to the right or to the left @ a range of 1.5 km

Anyway, X-boats aside, I was able to test many changes to the above lines with none seeming to have much effect. Tried many values from 0 and 0.1 anywhere up to 50.

Now, on to guns_radars_01.sim

[Dogfish40]

Originally Posted by gap

In guns_radars_01.sim there are 3 parameters per gun that could affect their dispersion/accuracy. They are:

• Restr_dist (in meters): stock settings range from 100 to 1000; in general, bigger figures are applied to bigger calibers.
• Trav. tolerance and Elev. tolerance (in degrees?): stock settings for AI guns are invariably 1 for both parameters. U-boat's Flak guns got 15/15. U-boat's Deck gun: 0.75/0.75.

I've been digging in past threads of SHIII-IV forums for an explaination on what these parameters actually do, but couldn't find any clear answer. If anyone got time for fiddling with them, I can provide quick instructions on how to edit them in goblin editor, if needed.



http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...29#post1935329

This is also interesting, that the guns in question hit his boat submerged so very accurately yet, in a surface battle, I have been closer, say 1000 + mtrs and lasted quite a while before I started to take on damage. This makes me think of the Elite units in SH4 that were much more accurate than their peers. So, is it possible that some of this accuracy is on a ship by ship basis?
D40

[gap]

Originally Posted by Dogfish40

This is also interesting, that the guns in question hit his boat submerged so very accurately yet, in a surface battle, I have been closer, say 1000 + mtrs and lasted quite a while before I started to take on damage. This makes me think of the Elite units in SH4 that were much more accurate than their peers. So, is it possible that some of this accuracy is on a ship by ship basis?
D40

Yes, what you are suggesting is plausible and worth further testing

When creating a test mission, there are five possible crew rankings that can be assigned to each unit (in Mission Editor, Properties window, under Performance, VeterrancyLevel): Poor, Novice, Competent, Veteran and Elite.

I don't remember if it is possible to modify these rankings in game through mission options panel, but there is a quick way to do it with notepad: open mission's mis file, and look for CrewRating entries. There is one of them for each unit (incuding plyer's sub). 0 stands for Poor, 1 for Novice, and so on. By altering these values, it is possible to check how units' rating affects their gun's aiming, letting any other parameter unaltered

[=SE=Sova]

Originally Posted by gap

Interesting topic. Obviously SH5 wepaons/armor system requires a general rebalance.

Out of curiosity, Sova, wich kind of machine gun made that much damage to your sub?

Machine gun from Cimaron clas tanker.Historical missions,Convoy AI testing.
Not deck gun,machine gun.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by =SE=Sova

Cimaron clas tanker.

Oh, well, that's different then. Everybody knows Americans do everything better. That machine gun should have sunk your sub at 200 meters!