Texas leaving!?!

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Oberon

The thing that I think gets to me the most is that you have a country, the United States of America, that has done so much with itself as a nation united under a common cause, the freedom and liberty of man. People complain about the gap between the rich and the poor, or about government intervention, or a welfare state, but honestly America has never had it so good. If you were to go back, three hundred, two hundred, even a hundred years ago, or back to the 1930s, the average person of America could only dream about the sort of things that the average American has now, welfare state or not. So many people have sacrificed their lives for a nation built up of differing ideas, of differing identities, that the idea of tearing that all down just because people don't like who won the election or their ideas for the future of the nation, it boggles my mind.
America has done so much because it's United, the only thing it managed to achieve whilst not united was to get 3% of its population killed.

in response i will just say that there can come a point in time when a split in ideology will contribute to a nations crumble. In this case the US has been 50-50 on the issues for a long long time.

so i refer you to one simple phrase

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

in this case of secession, the outcome of the election is not the chief issue, perhaps it is one of many?

as i pointed out in prior posts, the widening deficet, the crippling debt which will never be recovered from - ever. the ever increasing size and power of the federal government. the list goes on... personally i think most if not all of the gripes the states have are legitimate.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

in response i will just say that there can come a point in time when a split in ideology will contribute to a nations crumble. In this case the US has been 50-50 on the issues for a long long time.

so i refer you to one simple phrase

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

in this case of secession, the outcome of the election is not the chief issue, perhaps it is one of many?

as i pointed out in prior posts, the widening deficet, the crippling debt which will never be recovered from - ever. the ever increasing size and power of the federal government. the list goes on... personally i think most if not all of the gripes the states have are legitimate.

The secessionists love to throw around the Declaration of Independence like they're some latter day patriots.

They are not. They're cowards. They're cowards and extremists and worthy of all the contempt that any true patriot can muster. Treasonous, seditionist garbage always is.

The right got their ass kicked in a fair and square election. You're lying to yourself or others if you think it's about anything but that. President Romney would have been facing the exact same situation at this date. The election is what spurred this joke of a topic.

All of the tools of democracy have been given to the right wing. They have the ability and the right to make this country into whatever they want it to be. Their voice was heard. But they lost, just the same. But just because they got their ass kicked doesn't mean that they get to break up the nation.

It's "America: Love it or LEAVE it." Not "Love it or secede."

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

in response i will just say that there can come a point in time when a split in ideology will contribute to a nations crumble. In this case the US has been 50-50 on the issues for a long long time.

so i refer you to one simple phrase

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

in this case of secession, the outcome of the election is not the chief issue, perhaps it is one of many?

as i pointed out in prior posts, the widening deficet, the crippling debt which will never be recovered from - ever. the ever increasing size and power of the federal government. the list goes on... personally i think most if not all of the gripes the states have are legitimate.

That's as may be, but is succession really the answer? I can't see it doing anything other than setting back the progress of the United States by several decades and possibly resulting in another 3% of the population getting killed.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Well just because Texas raises more than it receives in federal funds doesn't mean the loss of those funds could easily be replaced in the event of a secession.



I absolutely view it with horror and hatred. One nation, indivisible. We're Texans but we're also Americans. That's not something I hold cheaply.

It's okay to hold a different opinion, right? I'm a Texan first, American second.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

It's okay to hold a different opinion, right? I'm a Texan first, American second.

not where mookie is concerned...

if you dont agree with him apparently you're garbage and cowardly trash.

i dont really have an opinion of secessionist movement at this point, i dont think things have gotten that bad in our country yet, but the writing is on the wall. America is more and more a welfare state every day and those ALWAYS fail.

mookie can helm the ship all the way to the sea floor if he likes... but the life boats are there for a reason.

Any government should tremble before its people. period.

when this no longer happens the people need options.

to argue that no matter how bad it gets and how bad the division that secession is not an option - ever... is very closed minded. After all it is the entire concept that birthed this nation into existence

No nation has yet graced the face of the earth forever.

[Oberon]

If that is the prevailing feeling then it would dovetail into the popular theory of the end of America and the rise of Asia. One of those self-fulfilling prophecies I think, a fear of decay leads to decay and destruction.

Ultimately it's Americas decision, but it would be a terrible shame to see a nation that has had a great a history as America to destroy itself through civil war.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

It's okay to hold a different opinion, right? I'm a Texan first, American second.

I see it as the other way around, and I guess that's why we have a difference of opinion.

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

not where mookie is concerned...

if you dont agree with him apparently you're garbage and cowardly trash.

Seditionists, traitors, and treasonists are indeed garbage and cowardly trash. That's why it's a crime eligible for the death penalty.

But nice try in trying to twist my words. I see you've gone to the August School of Debate.

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

America is more and more a welfare state every day and those ALWAYS fail.

Like Sweden, Finland and Norway, to name a few, have failed?

[Karle94]

Socialism may not always fail, but communism always does.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by Hottentot

Like Sweden, Finland and Norway, to name a few, have failed?

In what way does not operate these countries,which you mention here, political or economic?

Like Sweden, Finland and Norway, to name a few, have failed?

Maybe he means Imperial Germany, after all those Crazy Kaiser Clans did fail.

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by Vendor

In what way does not operate these countries,which you mention here, political or economic?

Read again the post I quoted.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Hottentot

So wait, please explain to a dumb foreigner: suppose this succeeds. Texas is no more part of the United States? It becomes a what? An independent nation of Texas? And the international community is going recognize it just like that?

That's always the problem with any part of a country that declares itself independent. The United States couldn't have succeeded without recognition and help from France. The Confederate States failed partly because they couldn't get the much needed recognition from Britain, France and Russia. The modern situation with Texas is slightly different. If Texas as a whole were to decide to seceed I doubt it would lead to war. More likely there would be extended negotiations with the United States and the US would have to be the first to accord official recognition, after which the rest of the world would have to follow.

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I don't see why the idea of a state leaving the Union is viewed with horror and hatred. What about the right of self-determination we're all so found of in the US?

Nor do I, though I don't like to think about certain friends no longer being fellow countrymen. I wouldn't want to have to get a passport to come to another Houston Subsim meet.

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

personally i think most if not all of the gripes the states have are legitimate.

I agree. There has been talk of secession in Utah and Wyoming that I know of. Just talk so far, nothing more. Nobody seriously expects anything to come of it.

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

It's okay to hold a different opinion, right? I'm a Texan first, American second.

Interesting concept, that. Back when I was a Christian I was a very serious one. Unlike the common right-wing version, I absolutely believed that my only allegiance was to a higher kingdom. America was just the place where God put me. Now that I'm more doubter than believer I still have that problem. Where should my allegiance lie? Certainly not to Utah, and if I ended up in Texas (which was a possibility for awhile) or back in California, I still wouldn't consider myself beholden to that State either; it would just be where I was. I don't see Jimbuna, Tarjak or even Skybird as any less special than myself, and that is incidental to the country they happen to live in. I consider Jim to be the best friend I have at the moment, and the fact that he's not American has nothing to do with it.

I support America because of the ideals upon which it was created, not because it's "My country 'tis of thee...". If those ideals are not being supported by the country, it should be changed, preferably from within being the first choice. It was during the Vietnam hippy days that the so-called patriots came up with the phrase Mookie quoted: "America - love it or leave it." The hippies came up with an answer that I took to heart even while I was still overseas fighting for "my" country: "America - change it or loose it."

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

Any government should tremble before its people. period.

And that is the embodiment of the American ideal. You only have freedom where the government fears the people. When the people fear the government you have tyranny, whether anybody (including the government itself) realizes it or not.

when this no longer happens the people need options.

As long as the people agree to look at all the options, and not just that one, then I agree.

to argue that no matter how bad it gets and how bad the division that secession is not an option - ever... is very closed minded.

Again I agree, but only so long as all the options are considered and discussed. That's the most important part - open discourse. The last secession was fueled by hotheads on both sides, each of whom wanted not just to go their separate ways but to humiliate the other side. That course never works.

After all it is the entire concept that birthed this nation into existence.

Again, don't forget that The Founders originally didn't want that separation, and did everything in their power to make things right with the home government, only declaring independence after the home government started waging actual war on them.

As I used to say back in the day, "Never forget that your Founding Fathers rebelled against their Rightful, God-Given Government."

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

ISeditionists, traitors, and treasonists are indeed garbage and cowardly trash. That's why it's a crime eligible for the death penalty.

But discussion of any and all options, even serious discussion, is hardly treason. If it were the most of the people here would be sitting in cells waiting for Madame Guillotine to do her work.

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The modern situation with Texas is slightly different. If Texas as a whole were to decide to seceed I doubt it would lead to war. More likely there would be extended negotiations with the United States and the US would have to be the first to accord official recognition, after which the rest of the world would have to follow.

Agreed. I don't see a war coming either, but neither do I believe that the rest of the nations are all just going to say: "Oh, you don't want to play with your former nation anymore? Cool, welcome to the playground." Especially in the case of the United States. Unless it collapses completely and suddenly, it will still hold enough influence to have the rest of the world first see this as an internal matter and wait how it turns out.

That, or its enemies are going to see it as an opportunity. But then, I don't see Texas suddenly joining up with China or Russia just because.