For those who care about Russian lies and history

geetrue · 11-01-12, 06:45 PM

One thing USA and UK have in common is that they don't lie about history.

I have often thought someone should start a www.truthinhistory.edu

Oberon · 11-01-12, 07:03 PM

Oh, I dunno about lying, but we have been known to view things with rose-tinted specs a lot, or only one side of the story. Just ask Tribesman.

We tend to just skip over bits of history where we were...not very nice people...such as Cromwells jaunt to Ireland, or the Concentration camps during the Second Boer War.

It's the old adage that nearly always rings true, history is written by the victors.

It's a case of walking that fine line between being proud of your nation and being patriotic to the point of jingoism. I admit, I sometimes stray across that line, particularly when it comes to harking back to the days of the Empire, but I try to keep myself grounded by reminding myself of things like the Jallianwala Bagh massacre, but even then it's hard, as someone born in England, and aware of the days of Empire, not to feel a little bit of nationalistic pride in our accomplishments of the era, even if they were written in the blood of many others. Of course, the milage may vary, I think most people in this country of my age are only aware of what is on television or facebook, and couldn't really give two hoots about history outside Downton Abbey perhaps. A mixed blessing, because it lowers the likelihood of nationalistic tendencies amongst the populace of the future (as the BNP are finding out, although the fact that they are morons also works against them) but it also builds walls around us and fractures society a bit when you don't look at where you've come from before you look at where you're going.
Still, c'est la vie et c'est la guerre, as my terrible GCSE French would say.

Jimbuna · 11-01-12, 07:13 PM

Churchill, the only one who could lead the nation in wartime but was unable during peacetime.

Platapus · 11-01-12, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Churchill, the only one who could lead the nation in wartime but was unable during peacetime.

I think that's because it is easier to lead people in a war than in peacetime.

In war, you have an external adversary upon which you can direct the focus of of not only the government but the citizens. Nothing shields like wrapping yourself in the flag.

In peacetime, the political adversary is often internal to the government.

As far as the US is concerned, I think pretty much any viable candidate can be a good wartime president. Doing a good job in peacetime is the tricky part.

11-01-12, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Just ask Tribesman.

Yep Cromwell is still fondly remembered in town, and Galway wasn't even one of his more extravegant parties.

Quote:

It's the old adage that nearly always rings true, history is written by the victors.

I don't know, they didn't actually win but your history books are getting updated by the Mau Mau after it turns out the "lost" foriegn/commonwealth office documents hadn't all been destroyed.

Oberon · 11-01-12, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribesman

I don't know, they didn't actually win but your history books are getting updated by the Mau Mau after it turns out the "lost" foriegn/commonwealth office documents hadn't all been destroyed.

Touché, and that's the beauty of the modern era, and indeed any era after the dawn of writing, some scraps of even defeated empires remain, things that enable us to get a better understanding of the history of the time rather than purely relying on the victors testament.

Sailor Steve · 11-01-12, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Oh, I dunno about lying, but we have been known to view things with rose-tinted specs a lot, or only one side of the story. Just ask Tribesman.

We tend to just skip over bits of history where we were...not very nice people...such as Cromwells jaunt to Ireland, or the Concentration camps during the Second Boer War.

Possibly in your school books, and ours, but one of the hallmarks of Britain and the US and some other Western countries is that people can freely question the 'official' histories and publish contrary books without fear of jail or censorship. Anybody can publish pretty much anything he wants, which makes it hard sometimes to ferret out the truth, but is still far preferable that having nothing investigated for fear of being sent to the gulag.

CCIP · 11-02-12, 06:03 AM

And as far as deaths of leaders go, if everything is so open and transparent in the USA, why is there still such a huge number of conspiracy theories around JFK? No Soviet leader's death is surrounded with the amount of mystery, red tape, and sealed files than JFK's. That's not to suggest that I believe in the conspiracy theories, but the history of that one is anything but straightforward, transparent and open.

Sailor Steve · 11-02-12, 07:48 AM

I didn't say everything here is "open and transparent". Far from it. There is the chance that the Warren Commission lied, and all those theorists are trying to find the truth. There is the chance that the Warren Commision report is spot on, and the conspiracy guys are all nuts. In either case my point is that all those people can openly question the 'Official' reports without fear of reprisals. Of course the conspiracy guys will tell you that many people involved died "mysteriously", but they still get to say it, and they do.

Soviet Union? Have you ever heard of this book?
http://www.amazon.com/The-Commissar-.../dp/0805052941

I own a copy and it's...interesting, to say the least.

CCIP · 11-02-12, 08:06 AM

Oh no, I'm not arguing about that at all. Of course the level of covering-up that happened in the USSR is downright disturbing, and Putin isn't exactly a gift from heaven. Just pointing out that lying and murky business around state leaders is not really a Russian trait, and the very title of this thread irks me for that reason. Russian history is not made up of lies, and quite the opposite - in some regard, we know more 'truth' about Russian history than we do about many other places', with the benefit of hindsight on the fallen Soviet era that doesn't require romanticization and is, at least outside of Russia, largely de-politicized now when it comes to historical studies. It's a tragedy that the opening of the Soviet archives was so short-lived in the 90s, but even for the brief time that those were open, an unprecedented amount of historical evidence emerged. By comparison, much Western documentary history from the Cold War era is still locked away in intelligence agencies' vaults. So, even in respect to the brave Russian historians who delved into Soviet archives before they were locked away again, "Russian lies and Russian history" just strikes me as unfair to say the least, as does the notion that somehow Western history is more open. In some ways the reverse is true. Give credit where it's due, etc.

Sailor Steve · 11-02-12, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

Just pointing out that lying and murky business around state leaders is not really a Russian trait, and the very title of this thread irks me for that reason.

Got that right!

Quote:

"Russian lies and Russian history" just strikes me as unfair to say the least, as does the notion that somehow Western history is more open. In some ways the reverse is true. Give credit where it's due, etc.

In that I have to agree.

geetrue · 11-02-12, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

Just pointing out that lying and murky business around state leaders is not really a Russian trait, and the very title of this thread irks me for that reason. Russian history is not made up of lies, and quite the opposite - in some regard, we know more 'truth' about Russian history than we do about many other places', with the benefit of hindsight on the fallen Soviet era that doesn't require romanticization and is, at least outside of Russia, largely de-politicized now when it comes to historical studies. It's a tragedy that the opening of the Soviet archives was so short-lived in the 90s, but even for the brief time that those were open, an unprecedented amount of historical evidence emerged. By comparison, much Western documentary history from the Cold War era is still locked away in intelligence agencies' vaults. So, even in respect to the brave Russian historians who delved into Soviet archives before they were locked away again, "Russian lies and Russian history" just strikes me as unfair to say the least, as does the notion that somehow Western history is more open. In some ways the reverse is true. Give credit where it's due, etc.

I was not aware that Russia had opened up it's archives to tell the truth for I spent my twenties on an FBM submarine with history books full of horrible things Russia had done after WWII. Mostly Stalin of course and most of my views are before the wall fell in 89 I think.

So I apoligize for being old and too stubborn to think that they have started to tell it's citzens the truth.

https://www.cia.gov/index.html

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...ook/index.html

Quote:

The World Factbook provides information on the history, people, government, economy, geography, communications, transportation, military, and transnational issues for 267 world entities. Our Reference tab includes: maps of the major world regions, as well as Flags of the World, a Physical Map of the World, a Political Map of the World, a World Oceans map, and a Standard Time Zones of the World map.

Show me the link to KGB facts ...

You may have grown up there, true and think they told you the truth, but did they tell your parents the truth? I doubt it ... I do not mean that in a meanful spirit.

USA has President Johnson's lies of two North Vietnam patrol boats attacking the poor DE Turner Joy, which never happened resulting in 58,000 men and women losing their lives.

Just to point out a USA mistake, but we can at least argue the point online in this country.

Red Brow · 11-10-12, 08:05 PM

Unlike MIT during our recent election. at least the Russian leaders haven't changed all that much since Ivan The Terrible.

Sailor Steve · 11-11-12, 03:12 AM

Was Massachussetts Institute of Technology involved in the election in some way I missed?

Anyway, WELCOME ABOARD!

STEED · 11-11-12, 07:06 AM

All our leaders lie and its our job to question everything they say, the day we stop will be the day they win.

11-01-12, 06:45 PM	#1
geetrue Cold War Boomer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Walla Walla Posts: 2,837 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	One thing USA and UK have in common is that they don't lie about history. I have often thought someone should start a www.truthinhistory.edu __________________

11-01-12, 07:13 PM	#3
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 191,300 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Churchill, the only one who could lead the nation in wartime but was unable during peacetime. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

11-02-12, 06:03 AM	#8
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	And as far as deaths of leaders go, if everything is so open and transparent in the USA, why is there still such a huge number of conspiracy theories around JFK? No Soviet leader's death is surrounded with the amount of mystery, red tape, and sealed files than JFK's. That's not to suggest that I believe in the conspiracy theories, but the history of that one is anything but straightforward, transparent and open. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

11-02-12, 07:48 AM	#9
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	I didn't say everything here is "open and transparent". Far from it. There is the chance that the Warren Commission lied, and all those theorists are trying to find the truth. There is the chance that the Warren Commision report is spot on, and the conspiracy guys are all nuts. In either case my point is that all those people can openly question the 'Official' reports without fear of reprisals. Of course the conspiracy guys will tell you that many people involved died "mysteriously", but they still get to say it, and they do. Soviet Union? Have you ever heard of this book? http://www.amazon.com/The-Commissar-.../dp/0805052941 I own a copy and it's...interesting, to say the least. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

11-02-12, 08:06 AM	#10
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Oh no, I'm not arguing about that at all. Of course the level of covering-up that happened in the USSR is downright disturbing, and Putin isn't exactly a gift from heaven. Just pointing out that lying and murky business around state leaders is not really a Russian trait, and the very title of this thread irks me for that reason. Russian history is not made up of lies, and quite the opposite - in some regard, we know more 'truth' about Russian history than we do about many other places', with the benefit of hindsight on the fallen Soviet era that doesn't require romanticization and is, at least outside of Russia, largely de-politicized now when it comes to historical studies. It's a tragedy that the opening of the Soviet archives was so short-lived in the 90s, but even for the brief time that those were open, an unprecedented amount of historical evidence emerged. By comparison, much Western documentary history from the Cold War era is still locked away in intelligence agencies' vaults. So, even in respect to the brave Russian historians who delved into Soviet archives before they were locked away again, "Russian lies and Russian history" just strikes me as unfair to say the least, as does the notion that somehow Western history is more open. In some ways the reverse is true. Give credit where it's due, etc. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) Last edited by CCIP; 11-02-12 at 08:32 AM.

11-01-12, 07:03 PM	#2
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Oh, I dunno about lying, but we have been known to view things with rose-tinted specs a lot, or only one side of the story. Just ask Tribesman. We tend to just skip over bits of history where we were...not very nice people...such as Cromwells jaunt to Ireland, or the Concentration camps during the Second Boer War. It's the old adage that nearly always rings true, history is written by the victors. It's a case of walking that fine line between being proud of your nation and being patriotic to the point of jingoism. I admit, I sometimes stray across that line, particularly when it comes to harking back to the days of the Empire, but I try to keep myself grounded by reminding myself of things like the Jallianwala Bagh massacre, but even then it's hard, as someone born in England, and aware of the days of Empire, not to feel a little bit of nationalistic pride in our accomplishments of the era, even if they were written in the blood of many others. Of course, the milage may vary, I think most people in this country of my age are only aware of what is on television or facebook, and couldn't really give two hoots about history outside Downton Abbey perhaps. A mixed blessing, because it lowers the likelihood of nationalistic tendencies amongst the populace of the future (as the BNP are finding out, although the fact that they are morons also works against them) but it also builds walls around us and fractures society a bit when you don't look at where you've come from before you look at where you're going. Still, c'est la vie et c'est la guerre, as my terrible GCSE French would say.

11-10-12, 08:05 PM	#13
Red Brow A-ganger Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Colorado Posts: 72 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Unlike MIT at least Unlike MIT during our recent election. at least the Russian leaders haven't changed all that much since Ivan The Terrible.

11-11-12, 03:12 AM	#14
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Was Massachussetts Institute of Technology involved in the election in some way I missed? Anyway, WELCOME ABOARD! __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

11-11-12, 07:06 AM	#15
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	All our leaders lie and its our job to question everything they say, the day we stop will be the day they win. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!