Why aircraft carriers won't make sense in space

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by tater

Protector was the Niven novel.

Originally Posted by Raptor1

It is probably Protector that Steve is thinking about...

Does an incident like that happen in Protector? It's only been thirty years since I read them. I probably still have them all in my collection, but I still have a bunch of boxes to unpack, and I've run out of shelf space.

[August]

Originally Posted by tater

Carriers in space won't work because of physics. It's not any more complicated than that. If you can get a high-thrust engine in a fighter, you can put XXXXX of them on a larger craft, and it will go just as fast (or change velocity just as much (delta-v)).

The only possible benefit of small craft is angular acceleration. Large ships cannot rotate quickly or the forces on the outside parts become severe, not to mention the loads on the crew. A ting fighter with the pilot at the CM has less of a problem. Course a tiny fighter carries no propellant, so it is useless.

Frankly, manned fighters are becoming anachronistic on earth, and they will never exist in space. Make a "fighter" that intercepts the target. A drone/missile. Done. Now it only needs the delta-v to get to the target, not get there, then return.

Again a platform for launching fighter planes is just one single role for a carrier, but there are others. The primary one is as a mobile base from which to mount expeditions or provide support to new or existing colonies. A role that I think would serve well in space given the distances involved.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by August

Again a platform for launching fighter planes is just one single role for a carrier, but there are others. The primary one is as a mobile base from which to mount expeditions or provide support to new or existing colonies. A role that I think would serve well in space given the distances involved.

That makes sense. Also, in space, Aircraft carriers might be able to play an effective anti-ship role?

Also, we would need small, heavily armed stealth ships for attacking commerce!

[Oberon]

Personally I think the role of aircraft carrier would be rolled (pardon the pun) into the role of battleship, cruiser and destroyer. Since manoeuvrability is taken out of the equation then you'd want something that is capable of doing everything needed for a long cruise. Putting down 'Marines' on a hostile planet, check, protecting cargo vessels, check, providing a gunboat for diplomacy, check, humanitarian crisis, check.
Furthermore, since communications will be sporadic, these vessels will become their own nations in a sea of isolation, the captain/admiral/commodore/Legate will make decisions that will affect the homeworld without being able to check with them first. Perhaps that will require a group of diplomats or representatives of the homeworld to be on board? Likewise you'll need scientists and medical staff. So it's going to be a big ship, but if you're not needing to do the Kessel run then why worry about the size? Heck, you could go really crazy and just use a planet or a Dyson sphere.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

Also, we would need small, heavily armed stealth ships for attacking commerce!

Far more problematic than you might imagine...

Originally Posted by Oberon

Personally I think the role of aircraft carrier would be rolled (pardon the pun) into the role of battleship, cruiser and destroyer. Since manoeuvrability is taken out of the equation then you'd want something that is capable of doing everything needed for a long cruise. Putting down 'Marines' on a hostile planet, check, protecting cargo vessels, check, providing a gunboat for diplomacy, check, humanitarian crisis, check.
Furthermore, since communications will be sporadic, these vessels will become their own nations in a sea of isolation, the captain/admiral/commodore/Legate will make decisions that will affect the homeworld without being able to check with them first. Perhaps that will require a group of diplomats or representatives of the homeworld to be on board? Likewise you'll need scientists and medical staff. So it's going to be a big ship, but if you're not needing to do the Kessel run then why worry about the size?

In other words:

[tater]

A carrier for craft that can enter an atmosphere makes sense, but they would not be needed as combat craft. FO selects target, weapon is deorbited to precise coords. Boom.

Fighters in space are silly, sadly. Fun, but silly.

[August]

I'll bet he's thinking more like:

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Does an incident like that happen in Protector? It's only been thirty years since I read them. I probably still have them all in my collection, but I still have a bunch of boxes to unpack, and I've run out of shelf space.

I'm a bit fuzzy on Protector, since it's been quite a while since I read it (though not thirty years, obviously), but IIRC it had a battle between the protagonists and pursuing Pak ships which includes the use of tactics similar to what you mention.

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

That makes sense. Also, in space, Aircraft carriers might be able to play an effective anti-ship role?

Also, we would need small, heavily armed stealth ships for attacking commerce!

Aircraft carriers in space would be about as good as cargo freighters, unless they're the sort that can conduct trans-Atmospheric operations like the AeroSpace Fighters in BattleTech. As for 'stealth ships', those seem to be out of the realm of realistic physics at this point.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

As for 'stealth ships', those seem to be out of the realm of realistic physics at this point.

I'm not quite so sure, we already have radar reduction materials, sound isn't going to be a problem, and heat dampeners would be simple enough to fit, and to escape visual detection, well you could probably just paint the thing black, or use refraction to bend light around the ship.
The primary problem comes with the reduction of the radar reductive material through collisions with micro-meteors and other small debris which nullifies its usefulness, but if a way is found around that then certainly stealth space vessels are a practical possibility, of course they would be primarily ambush vessels since their drive systems would be detectable in use, a bit like the 'tail-pipe' of Changs Bird of Prey. I think that any stealth technology though would find a better use in mines, depending on the level of defence that ships of the future have against micro-meteors and space debris it wouldn't even need to contain explosives, just enough mass to cause damage when the fast moving vessel collides with it.

Of course there is the possibility of sensor systems which are under development at the moment making things like radar obsolete, but whenever a detection system is developed, it is likely that a counter to it will be under development, from Window to ECM to Stealth.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I'm not quite so sure, we already have radar reduction materials, sound isn't going to be a problem, and heat dampeners would be simple enough to fit, and to escape visual detection, well you could probably just paint the thing black, or use refraction to bend light around the ship.
The primary problem comes with the reduction of the radar reductive material through collisions with micro-meteors and other small debris which nullifies its usefulness, but if a way is found around that then certainly stealth space vessels are a practical possibility, of course they would be primarily ambush vessels since their drive systems would be detectable in use, a bit like the 'tail-pipe' of Changs Bird of Prey. I think that any stealth technology though would find a better use in mines, depending on the level of defence that ships of the future have against micro-meteors and space debris it wouldn't even need to contain explosives, just enough mass to cause damage when the fast moving vessel collides with it.

Of course there is the possibility of sensor systems which are under development at the moment making things like radar obsolete, but whenever a detection system is developed, it is likely that a counter to it will be under development, from Window to ECM to Stealth.

Oberon you should read the link I posted in my last post:

http://www.projectrho.com/public_htm...ealth_In_Space

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Oberon you should read the link I posted in my last post:

http://www.projectrho.com/public_htm...ealth_In_Space

Aha, I did ponder, but I didn't realise that drive engines had that much of a heat signature. Makes sense though, but would the same problems occur for mines?

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I'm not quite so sure, we already have radar reduction materials, sound isn't going to be a problem, and heat dampeners would be simple enough to fit, and to escape visual detection, well you could probably just paint the thing black, or use refraction to bend light around the ship.
The primary problem comes with the reduction of the radar reductive material through collisions with micro-meteors and other small debris which nullifies its usefulness, but if a way is found around that then certainly stealth space vessels are a practical possibility, of course they would be primarily ambush vessels since their drive systems would be detectable in use, a bit like the 'tail-pipe' of Changs Bird of Prey. I think that any stealth technology though would find a better use in mines, depending on the level of defence that ships of the future have against micro-meteors and space debris it wouldn't even need to contain explosives, just enough mass to cause damage when the fast moving vessel collides with it.

Of course there is the possibility of sensor systems which are under development at the moment making things like radar obsolete, but whenever a detection system is developed, it is likely that a counter to it will be under development, from Window to ECM to Stealth.

The problem with stealth ships in space is waste heat and propulsion. If you have humans living on this ship, you are going to generate tons of waste heat, the only way to dispose of which is to radiate it outside the ship, which could be easily detected by anyone casually looking. Then you have the problem that, even if you shut down your engines while trying to be stealthy, you are going to have to burn them in order to actually get anywhere, which would of course be seen by everyone in the system. TLAM Strike's Project Rho link has a nice detailed explanation of the problems with stealth in space.

Stealth mines might work. I can see something like disguising inactive missiles as space junk in orbit, waiting to be activated when an enemy ship wanders too close as a workable tactic. But without a way around these problems "small, heavily armed stealth ships" would not work.

EDIT: Damn ninjas!

[tater]

Forget radar, think simple IR telescopes. If the crew compartment is habitable, then it's a reasonable IR source. If the ship makes sci fi amounts of power (powerful drives, or directed energy weapons), then it's a bright IR source.

[August]

How well does IR and radar work against an object that is light years away and moving very fast? Would any data they produce arrive in time to do any good?

Also within a solar system, where the speeds and distance are relatively less, there are plenty of planets, moons, asteroids and other stuff to hide the biggest of ships behind.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by August

How well does IR and radar work against an object that is light years away and moving very fast? Would any data they produce arrive in time to do any good?

Unless the ship was travelling faster than the speed of light then IR and Radar, and other means of electromagnetic detection would provide weeks or months worth of warning.

Also within a solar system, where the speeds and distance are relatively less, there are plenty of planets, moons, asteroids and other stuff to hide the biggest of ships behind.

The element of surprise would probably only work if the system was outside of the detection range of the vessel you intend to attack, or if you were able to approach the vessel keeping a planet between you and it at all times, which would be difficult and easily countered by the enemy having more than one unit with sensors, for example a capital ship with smaller scouting vessels around it, arranged in a manner that their radar and IR systems cover a maximum range would mean that even if the capital ship doesn't detect the vessel entering the system, the scouts would and relay that message to the capital ship, thus eliminating the element of surprise.

Hiding near objects that emit electromagnetic interference and product a larger amount of heat than your vessel might work...or might just get you killed. Stars perhaps, but again, you'd be detected moving into position.


EDIT: Also, I didn't see TLAMs post at #35 (hence my blunder on IR detector a few posts later) but yes, a Galaxy class is a good all rounder vessel for long range space exploration/flag planting/diplomacy. Although in TNG, it's rare that they actually go out of communications range of Starfleet Command, so the element of the captain of the vessel being a joint military/diplomatic officer/scientist is a bit lost...BUT, it is a core principle of training for Starfleet officers, so it is at least acknowledged in the Trekverse. Kirk on the other hand, had a more primitive comms setup, and when Archer went into the Expanse he was pretty much on his own...but then his Enterprise was, well, mostly outmatched by anything it faced.