Germany and France vow to strengthen ties

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Was it ever going to end any other way?
As I said to the chaps on TS last night, you can't get a group of countries that have spent pretty much their entire histories beating each other senseless and suddenly expect them to put their differences aside and not put their own nation first. The Euro was doomed to fail from the start, not because of finances, or not just because of it, but because of human nature. We're just not ready for that level of co-ordination yet, heck I mean look at the UN and the tangled inoperative mess that that has become from the good intentions of post-World War II. National pride and motives will seep into any political agenda.

I agree....and I'd still like Britain to leave.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

I agree....and I'd still like Britain to leave.

Ideally, so would I, but if we left tomorrow our economy would just implode, we're too interlinked with it. What should be happening now, if we wanted to pull out of the EU in the future is a reinvestment in our primary and secondary industries, things like Farms, factories, mines, enough to make us as near as self-sufficient as possible so that the high tariffs don't wreck us...and even then it might not be enough since the City of London has played itself into a strong position within the EU markets and might not survive being extracted from them.
This may come about without our control, I expect, personally, that if the EU does fall, then France and Germany will set up a new EU with tighter controls. Whether we'll join that, or indeed even be invited to join that, is another matter entirely, and given the mistrust we've shown France and Germany, our reluctance to put forward into the Euro, the "We're in, we're out" attitude our government has had depending on what government is in power, means I don't think that they would invite us, just as they were reluctant to with the EU, which could freeze us out of European markets which will stifle our trade opportunities.
Then there's Eastern Europe which is a whole difference kettle of fish and may even set up its own version of the EU which works differently, and Russia will have its own version with some of the former Pact states which are still on good terms with it, Belarus for example.
It's all going to be a bit of a mess, so in one respect I can understand why so many governments are so desperate to keep the Euro afloat because if it collapses, then it's going to be a very turbulent ride for the whole world (including America), however continually propping the whole thing up may just be a case of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic...

[Jimbuna]

The question I struggle to find an answer for is....currently 40% of our trade is with the EU, so would leaving create further opportunities for trade with other countries and just as importantly, could the EU write off so much trade?

[STEED]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

The question I struggle to find an answer for is....currently 40% of our trade is with the EU, so would leaving create further opportunities for trade with other countries and just as importantly, could the EU write off so much trade?

40% and falling going to Europe.

70% and rising Europe to the UK.

The big lie Europe needs us! Tosh, we need Europe as we don't make stuff any more. Most of our Heavy to Medium Industry was smashed by you know who, and as this is not that thread I shall stop there.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by STEED

Most of our Heavy to Medium Industry was smashed by you know who, and as this is not that thread I shall stop there.

Bingo, and then she had the nerve to go gunboat in hand to the EU and demand more concessions. Still, she had gall, that much I shall say, and again, I shall leave that there because this is the wrong thread for that.

Certainly though, we need to reinvest in our industry, both Heavy, Medium and Farming, to create jobs, to create food, to create materials to build growth. However, so long as it is cheaper to just buy stuff in from abroad, that is exactly what will keep happening, because like electricity, companies will always travel the path of least resistance/expenses.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Oberon

we need to reinvest in our industry, both Heavy, Medium and Farming, to create jobs, to create food, to create materials to build growth.

Agreed but it will never happen. Capitalism is now dying and corporatism wants to turn back the clock by bringing back slavery and this ties in nicely with the fact the world's oil has almost peaked. I hate to live on this planet in 50 years time, if that.

[mapuc]

Can tell you that it's not only the german that's angry about throwing their money into a bottomless greece.

Even the danes and we the swedes are angry.

Markus

[Skybird]

Global economics is a total mess.

First, we need to go back to local supply. Farms shall not farm what the global market needs, and certainly they shall not prei8uce plants to make fuel of themn. They must go back to serving local demand of tghe near region: producing the kind of goods that the locals buy. Noit shuffling them around countries, nations, continents.

Industry: small is beautiful. Not selling TVs from Phillips in America, American VBs in Asia, and Asian TVs in Europe. But Asian TVs in Asia, European TVs ins Europe, and American TVs in America.

We need to cut - massively - the number of salesmen in the middle.

International trade should be limited to trading goods and resources that the other indeed does not have and cannot produce. I give you what you do not have, and you give me what I cannot produce myself.

Back to the regions. Local autarcy as far as possible.

Big business and stockmarkets certainly wants to see me dead for saying this. Probably as much as I want to see them dead.

Stockmarkets should be prohibited. Banks should be limiteds to not exceed certain sizes. They must be monitored by local communities within whose borders they should be limited to operate. Betting on food and resources should be put under draconic penalty. Trading debts and trading currencies should be prohibited.

Away from supra-national industry, back to regional production for local demand.

Saves also all energy and emissions for headlessly shuttling biblical amounts of goods around the globe.

Just for a start. For capitalist trade empires, this is a nightmare, of course, and for followers of the unlimited growth doctrine and the gospel of predatory capitalism, it is a nightmare as well. Politicians founding their careers on solving problems that without them would not even exist, it is no welcomed vision of the world as well.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

The question I struggle to find an answer for is....currently 40% of our trade is with the EU, so would leaving create further opportunities for trade with other countries and just as importantly, could the EU write off so much trade?

It could be done, but at the moment with the global economic outlook so low it could be hard to find the right trading partners. Plus you've got the fact that we are right next door to Europe so transportation costs are relatively low, particularly if you use things like the Tunnel, which as fuel costs rise it is an important thing to consider.
However, at the same time you have to factor in trade tariffs, I'd wager that a few nations will be putting them up in an effort to stimulate internal growth to try and get companies selling country x goods to country x rather than country y.
Could the EU write off so much trade? In the short term perhaps not, in the long term though I'm sure they would adapt, they did fine before we joined them after all...but I'm not so sure we could afford to shun our closest trading partners in an era when money is tight.


I feel sorry for Greece, it's in a no-win situation. Samaras wants, no, needs the Greek bailout, however he also needs to try and keep himself in office and not have the Greek government overthrown in a 'Greek spring' or a military coup. So he's keeping all the plates spinning by a mixture of promises, lies and prayers, just like any other politician in the world, however the problems is that he's spinning lead plates on a molecule thin stick of rice paper, and that's not going to last forever.
If you think there's a bad immigration problem now in Europe, just wait until Greece gets kicked out of the Euro, can you say Exodus? Sure, there'll be tighter border controls, but that's not going to stop the illegals, and you know that once they're in the system, they don't come out of the system again.

It's easy to paint the Greeks, the Spanish, the Italians, the Portuguese, and anyone else who is getting into economic difficulties in Europe as lazy and incompetent, and deserving of their own fate. I'm sure that will be of great comfort to those without medicine and those who are struggling to exist. If that helps you get by, then by all means, get your brush out and paint those stereotypes, and they'll be sure to paint the Nazi stereotype in return and we can all butt heads and shout at each other as the boat sinks underneath us.

The fact is, even if half of the EU leaves it, the other half are still going to be stuck in a holed boat without a paddle, trying to keep a doomed idea afloat. It's easy to point fingers, it's harder to find a solution that will not result in chaos. I don't envy any EU politician right now, it must be a bit like trying to organise something politically or religiously motivated on GT...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Oberon

It's easy to paint the Greeks, the Spanish, the Italians, the Portuguese, and anyone else who is getting into economic difficulties in Europe as lazy and incompetent, and deserving of their own fate. I'm sure that will be of great comfort to those without medicine and those who are struggling to exist. If that helps you get by, then by all means, get your brush out and paint those stereotypes, and they'll be sure to paint the Nazi stereotype in return and we can all butt heads and shout at each other as the boat sinks underneath us.

Just for the record, while I have voiced heavy criticism repeatedly for sure - that simplistic I never have painted it, in fact have tried to see it more differentiated.

Just when my country, which I criticise myself on many opportunities, time and again gets attacked while loosing dozens and hundreds of billions at the cost of the younger Germans' future and their pensions when being old, while other nations try to establish a status of unlimited spending frenzies, betray treaties they swore to, and cheat on the eU and on othe rnations, and Germany always expected to pay for it, and we then get called Nazis and conquerors if some of us with silent voice dare to object to this madness - then I am after this long time a little bit pissed to much as if I let the one doing like this off the hook so easily.

Those benefitting from our payments are very quick in demanding more solidarity, and more solidarity, and then even more solidarity. But what is with the solidarity of those running mismanagement, cheating on the community, and getting fed like parasites at the cost of others who risk their own future over that - where is the solidarity with Europe in their behavior???

Have you ever noticed that the more risks Germany takes, the more payments it agrees to, and the more it gives to others (and betrays its own youth by doing so), the more Germany gets attacked, gets offended and is confronted by demands by doing even more, and more, and then more?

I'm sick of it, from head to toes. The only thing that sickens me even more is that Germans let the German mafia in the Bundestag do like this, instead of crowding the streets, storming the parliament and lining these liars and traitors up the wall for the treachery they commit.

[Oberon]

For what it's worth Sky, I completely agree with you in the need to go back to back to basics, although perhaps not quite as far as local markets selling only to local towns, but certainly trade within nations needs to be strengthened at the cost of trade between nations. Not just because of financial reasons but because of security reasons, if anything were to affect our ability to import items, just how many countries have a back-up supply of food? Since the end of the Cold War, how many stockpiles of food are kept?
Nothing, nada, zilch, everything is ordered Just In Time, food, clothing, materials, even electricity in some cases. There are no fail-safes and no back ups. It would be a disaster.

Your frustration is understandable, as is that of many Germans, to see their government poring billions of dollars into a seemingly bottomless pit, and to have no gratitude for that. Unfortunately it's a situation which has embittered both sides and has made people in both nations very angry with each other, but equally there are many in both nations which are doing their best to help.
There was a good bit on Panorama by Jon Humphries on the situation in Greece which aired a few months back:




You can see both sides of the story there, those who want to get Greece back on track, who recognise what went wrong, and those who just don't want to face the facts.

What worries me, is the rise of extremism under such circumstances, not just because of race, but also because of situations, the rich creating gated communities for the poor. You can already see things like this happening with the poorer people no longer able to live in the cities where the jobs are, being pushed out by the rich into the far suburbs and slummy-like estates were crime and antisocial behaviour is rife. The gap between the rich and the poor continues to widen and there is an inbuilt anger against...everything...in young people which was shown last year in the UK riots, so much hatred, and so much anger...it has to vent somewhere, in fear against race, anger against the economic divide, and the politicians will struggle to control it, and will have to ride with it, or...more likely...exploit it for their own benefit.

[Dan D]

@Chaps

The Polish foreign minister Sikorski has "blasted British Euroscepticism" in an interesting speech he held to an English audience lately: http://www.londyn.polemb.net/files/p...Speech-ENG.pdf

Summed up here, http://www.economist.com/blogs/easte...d-and-britain:
"Poland wants Britain in Europe as a counterweight to the EU's dirigiste, heavy-regulating countries and to balance German weight and Russian proximity. Despite the betrayals of the past (Yalta, Katyn) it cherishes Britain's support for Poland's freedom in recent years. But if Britain marginalises itself, Poland will have to make the best of Europe as it is, and as it is shaping up to be. I was once at dinner with Mr Sikorski and a leading British Tory who chided him over Poland's impending membership of the EU (it was 2001). "Why is Poland of all countries selling out to Brussels?" said the Tory. "Do you think we should rely on Britain, like we did in 1939?" came the crisp response."

Quote from speech with regard to Germany:
"More importantly, we believe the Eurozone will survive, because it is its members interest for it to survive. The leaders of Europe will step up operational integration at the European level. The new institutional arrangements within the EU will be different. But eventually they’ll be strong. They'll work because Europe’s leaders want them to work. And be careful what you read in your tabloids: No country has benefitted more from the single currency than Germany."