I thought Iraq didn't have any WMD

Ok Vienna you and the troll have convinced me.

The fact that you attempted to trot out that rubbish years after its proponents admitted it was as bull shows that you cannot be convinced you got it totally wrong.

Bush made up the whole thing one weekend out at the Crawford ranch. The poor poor Democrats were just ignorant pawns in the master chess players game to cast the peace loving gentle Saddam as some evil monster the world would be better off without. Apparently that's the Pravda nowadays and far be it from me to go against the koolaid stream.

Nice to see the drought isn't causing a shortage of straw for you to stuff you posts with
The master chess players were the Iranian nuts who sold you that crap you still believe.

Just between us though i'm still glad we took out Saddam

Not as glad as the shia theocrats are.

[vienna]

Oh, I am very glad Sadaam got taken out; it just didn't require a massive military force and the loss 3,800 coalition lives to do it. I would have been just as happy to have had it done by a single well-placed Hellfire and then all about have a pint to refresh our taste buds and toast a "Mission Accomplished"...

But, we would have been deprived of such sights as Dubbya strutting across a crrier deck looking little more than Alfred E. Newman dressed up like a G.I. Joe doll from the Island of Misfit Toys. Ah, that Dubbya: always good for a laugh (if the whole matter weren't so tragic)...

...

[August]

Originally Posted by vienna

Oh, I am very glad Sadaam got taken out; it just didn't require a massive military force and the loss 3,800 coalition lives to do it. I would have been just as happy to have had it done by a single well-placed Hellfire and then all about have a pint to refresh our taste buds and toast a "Mission Accomplished"...

But, we would have been deprived of such sights as Dubbya strutting across a crrier deck looking little more than Alfred E. Newman dressed up like a G.I. Joe doll from the Island of Misfit Toys. Ah, that Dubbya: always good for a laugh (if the whole matter weren't so tragic)...

...

Right, a well placed missile. If only it were that easy. Of course you'd need at least two more missiles to take out his heirs apparent, and then maybe some more missiles to take out Chemical Ali and the other big shots of the regime. Suddenly it's not that simple now is it?

Any loss of life is a terrible thing but that's the realistic cost of war, any war. As far as wars go though our losses were on the low side. This is a testament to the skill of our troops and nothing should be taken away from them in that regard.

By the way, that Mission Accomplished sign that you mention had nothing to do with Bush. It was requested for and put up by the Navy to celebrate their completion of a very long and successful combat deployment.

In wartime plenty of missions are accomplished. That has nothing to do with declaring victory. In the speech that Bush made in front of that sign he mentions several times that the war is not won yet.

But hey it gave the liberals something to point at besides their own complicity in getting that mission assigned in the first place. Casting blame on others in order to cover up their own lack of accomplishment seems to be a favorite Democrat tactic. Of course I guess they sort of have to since they never accomplish anything except to make things worse.

As far as wars go though our losses were on the low side.

As far as your losses go in that war they were very high.
Even one casualty would count as very high for that stupid conflict as it was totally un needed and was sold to a gullible public on a raft of lies.
But its OK August, keep believing the lies if it makes you happier about the waste.

[Betonov]

There's one line in Lord of war I completely agree with

Jack Valentine: Keeping track of nuclear arsenels - you'd think that be more critical to world security. But it's not. No, nine out of ten war victims today are killed with assault rifles and small arms - like yours. Those nuclear weapons sit in their silos. Your AK-47, that's the real weapon of mass destruction.

A bit off topic but that's the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear people talking about WMD's

[vienna]

Any loss of life is a terrible thing but that's the realistic cost of war, any war. As far as wars go though our losses were on the low side. This is a testament to the skill of our troops and nothing should be taken away from them in that regard.

Right, a cost of war as long as it isn't your life, right?

But hey it gave the liberals something to point at besides their own complicity in getting that mission assigned in the first place.

As I've said before, I am not a liberal and I am an independent.

Casting blame on others in order to cover up their own lack of accomplishment seems to be a favorite Democrat tactic. Of course I guess they sort of have to since they never accomplish anything except to make things worse.

Oh, I don't know about that; the GOP Right seem to be doing an examplary job of blaming Clinton, Obama and anyone or anything for the failing of the years 2001-2009. These seem to have become the "Lost Years" for which no historical, cultural, or archeologigal documentation or evidence exist; or is it, how did you put it:

Of course I guess they sort of have to since they never accomplish anything except to make things worse.

Thank you for the truism, August...

You know, I am of a mind to report you to PETA for the act of flagellating deceased equines...

[August]

Originally Posted by vienna

Right, a cost of war as long as it isn't your life, right?

That's a pretty low blow. I wore my countries uniform for seven years of honorable Army service. Did you?
I have friends and family who served in that war. Do you?

As I've said before, I am not a liberal and I am an independent.

I didn't say you were either. Of course if it smells like a rat...

I wore my countries uniform for seven years of honorable Army service. Did you?

How irrelevant can you get?
You are not special, wearing a uniform doesn't make it suddenly OK to peddle lines that are well established as totally false
In fact it makes it worse as you are showing utter contempt for the soldiers by still supporting a pile of lies that killed and maimed lots of them

I have friends and family who served in that war. Do you?

What have you got against them?
If you liked them you wouldn't have been in favour of the sillyness in Iraq.

[Catfish]

DID the Iraq have weapons of mass destruction ?
WAS the destroyer torpedoed by north-vietnamese PT boats in the gulf of Tonking, back then ?

Make up your mind yourself. This is not bashing the US, indeed i do not like the old Soviet Union or North Corea any more than August, but it very well shows how propaganda works, and how the Media never really questions anything the government says. Indeed you could compare this to the "polish attack at Germany" in 1939 - it is all the same, propaganda repeats itself, and "Lest we forget" should ESPECIALLY address those lies :



And now they are trying to kill and arrest those who say the truth. No democracy, no free speech.

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

How irrelevant can you get?

Not irrelevant at all. August's statement was a direct reaction to Vienna's seeming claim that August was willing to sacrifice other's lives but not his own.

You are not special, wearing a uniform doesn't make it suddenly OK to peddle lines that are well established as totally false
In fact it makes it worse as you are showing utter contempt for the soldiers by still supporting a pile of lies that killed and maimed lots of them

While I disagree with August on this, as long as he believes that he has the truth he is showing contempt for no one.

What have you got against them?
If you liked them you wouldn't have been in favour of the sillyness in Iraq.

His point was that he was one of them. You seem to be going back and forth on that.

Not irrelevant at all.

Did he go to Iraq in that episode of sillyness?
If not then any previous service is entirely irrelevant.

While I disagree with August on this, as long as he believes that he has the truth he is showing contempt for no one.

Do you really think anyone can honestly still believe that nonsense long after the authors of the rubbish have said it was bull?
Is it more likely that they are clutching at sttaws because it chokes them up that they were played as suckers and supported the waste of the troops.

His point was that he was one of them.

Not there, his point was that he had friends a family who were in Iraq.
That puts him on par with Cindy Sheehan and simply means that his views must be taken on their merit alone so if it is a crap view he holds then he holds a crap view.
Sheehans views are not suddenly right just because her son was in Iraq are they, some of her views hold water, some are rubbish and some are just very confused.
So on an equal measure Augusts views on this topic are just pure rubbish as they don't stand.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Did he go to Iraq in that episode of sillyness?
If not then any previous service is entirely irrelevant.

Not at all. I wasn't in Iraq, but I was in Vietnam. If you've never served you have no idea what it feels like to be accused of not being willing to risk your own life when you have done exactly that. I have friends who weren't in Iraq this time around, but were in Kuwait for the Gulf War. August signed up, and he would have gone wherever they sent him. His service is no less valid than anyone else's. It's not irrelevant at all.

Do you really think anyone can honestly still believe that nonsense long after the authors of the rubbish have said it was bull?
Is it more likely that they are clutching at sttaws because it chokes them up that they were played as suckers and supported the waste of the troops.

I tend to agree with you. Even if he is clutching at straws, his self-defense in the face of "as long as it's not your own life" is still relevant.

Sheehans views are not suddenly right just because her son was in Iraq are they, some of her views hold water, some are rubbish and some are just very confused.

No, nor would they have been right if she herself had served. That said, no one accused her of being willing to risk someone else's life but not her own. That accusation is the same as accusing someone of cowardice. Whatever I may think of August's arguing skills or tactics, I am certain that he is not coward, and that he would have willingly served in Iraq had circumstances dictated.

So on an equal measure Augusts views on this topic are just pure rubbish as they don't stand.

I agree, but that's not what his defence was about, or your charge of irrelevance. If you think his service is irrelevant to his argument, fine. I agree. But that's not why he brought it up. He brought it up because he was accused of what amounts to cowardice, and that grates on anyone who has served, whether he saw actual combat or not.

Not at all. I wasn't in Iraq, but I was in Vietnam.

But this isn't about Vietnam or Lebanon or Grenada or anywhere else, this is specificly about the bullexcrement used to justify the war in Iraq so it only counts for that conflict.

That accusation is the same as accusing someone of cowardice.

No it isn't.
Take a serviceman/ex serviceman who opposed the 2nd Boer war and supported the Great war or viceversa, which stand is he the coward for?
Take a serviceman who opposed both wars, which then.
Each must be dealt with on its merits and cowardice doesn't even rate on the meter of a decent arguement.
The only possible angle approaching "cowardice" here is a abject fear of facing the reality about the politicians lies.
That happens to be a common thing throughout history where people have to face the question of "what the hell was that all about?" after the conflict.
All too often some people slide into some myth as a comfort as they can't face the reality of it.

[Catfish]

repeating post #84: War made easy.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

No it isn't.

"as long as it isn't your life, right?"

Yes it is.

Take a serviceman...

Now you're being irrelevant. Your example has nothing to do with the "your life" comment.