I thought Iraq didn't have any WMD

[MH]

Originally Posted by JU_88

In a bitter sweet sort of way, I guess the question is would you like to live though almost a decade of war, in order to be able to cast a ballot?
If you have lost your livelyhood and/or home and/or loved ones, im guessing the answer is probably maybe not.

An invasion of Iraq had been on the cards since 2000 (feel free to look it up)
I do not believe for a second we went in to Iraq to spread democracy or to find WMDs, those were 'excuses' not legitimate reasons.
And even if theywere, if foreign troops invaded our nations to disarm us and replace our Political leadership? How would we feel about it?
We'd be somewhere between 'outraged' and 'a bit skeptical' I imagine.


However you dress it up, its still a case 'We think our system is superior to yours. so we will force you to live like us AND! expect you to thank us for it.
Now how democratic is that? And where in the U.S consitution does it say this is acceptable?

Its total BS, Bush & Blair used 9/11 fear mongering to sucker us in to supporting their dodgy deeds. Quite a nasty pair - those two.

Invasion of Iraq was in part to change geopolitical map of middle east.
Democracy and pro western government is one of the ways to do it...im not WMD story buyer but general behavior of Saddam Hussein called for such war.by 2000 he was re-establishing his position as regional bully.
9/11 opened wndow to finish the job.


Iraqi's Sadam Hussein deserved very much his ass to be kicked out of power the only miscalculation was about the chaos thereafter.
Iraqis had been no lovers of Saddam Husein as some welcomed Americans...the problem had been and is the tribal mentality and the meddling of neighboring countries like Iran and Syria or SA which looked toward destabilising any chance of civil life....by supporting all sorts of fractions that went along their own interests.
Iran for example would hate this experiment to succeed next door...same SA or Syria.
USA found it self in the middle of that taking all the heat.
Most of casualties in Iraq are due to tribal wars and terrorism against own population to create atmosphere of total chaos...terror at its best which in turn caused US forces to adopt some though polices.
It seems more act of terror had been conducted against own population or representatives of post Saddam government that actual US forces in Iraq...
Yet USA has been generally more successful in Iraq that in Afghanistan...as for now.
Question is how long it will hold with Iran trying to gain more influence over the region.
As it turns out ME is not Germany or Japan lol.





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[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by August

What exactly did the US Government supply them?

Economic aid, the sale of dual-use technology, non-U.S. origin weaponry, military intelligence, Special Operations training, and direct involvement in warfare against Iran.

This fact isn't exactly secret, new or in doubt.

[August]

Originally Posted by JU_88

To you yes, to everyones else, maybe not.
Think of it this way, any negative artical that the U.S media writes about China - is just 'foreign bull crap' to a patriotic chinese man, doesn't mean he is automatically correct though does it?.
Is that fair?

I have no reason to doubt that most of it is. On the other hand foreign media have a proven track record of distortions and outright lies when it comes to my country. Wasn't it you just the other day trying to tell me that a little Ron Paul rally drew thousands of veterans when it was just a couple hundred guys claiming to be vets? Isn't it you who keeps trying to make a case that 911 was an inside job? Why should we believe anything you say?

Now i'm sure that a US company or three had it's hand in Saddams cookie jar but whether they did it with the permission and approval of the US government is another thing. AFAIK the only thing we gave Saddam (along with a bunch of other countries) is some Anthrax samples as part of a vaccine development program. Kind of a dumb idea in hindsight but that does not equal giving them *all* their WMD like you claim.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by August

Now i'm sure that a US company or three had it's hand in Saddams cookie jar but whether they did it with the permission and approval of the US government is another thing. AFAIK the only thing we gave Saddam (along with a bunch of other countries) is some Anthrax samples as part of a vaccine development program. Kind of a dumb idea in hindsight but that does not equal giving them *all* their WMD like you claim.

T]he United States actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis with billions of dollars of credits, by providing U.S. military intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third country arms sales to Iraq to make sure that Iraq had the military weaponry required. The United States also provided strategic operational advice to the Iraqis to better use their assets in combat... The CIA, including both CIA Director Casey and Deputy Director Gates, knew of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non-U.S. origin military weapons, ammunition and vehicles to Iraq. My notes, memoranda and other documents in my NSC files show or tend to show that the CIA knew of, approved of, and assisted in the sale of non-U.S. origin military weapons, munitions and vehicles to Iraq.

- Statement by former National Security Council staffmember Howard Teicher to the U.S. District Court, Southern District of Florida.

http://www.webcitation.org/5flvP0UgC

[MH]

USA gave aid to Iraqis as long as he played the ball then he miscalculated with Kuwait and got screwed...that's life.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by August

Wasn't it you just the other day trying to tell me that a little Ron Paul rally drew thousands of veterans when it was just a couple hundred guys claiming to be vets?.

My mistake, it was approx 400 vets and 'thousands' of supporters. Anyway keep in mind Paul still got more donations from military personell than any of other candidates did. And that cam for Your media sources, not from any of that foreign muck.

Originally Posted by August

Isn't it you who keeps trying to make a case that 911 was an inside job?.

No, because questioning something is not the same as calling it something else. I make the case to not be too dismissive of people who have an alternative views on something, I actually remember the 9/11 thread and you were one of the few people that argued your case very mature and reasonable manner on that one (without name calling and character attacks.)

Originally Posted by August

Why should we believe anything you say?.

Why should we believe anything anyone says?. Do you have a track record of being 100% right on every subject in GT? You are right sometimes but not always, nobody is.

Originally Posted by August

but that does not equal giving them *all* their WMD like you claim.

I did? ....

Originally Posted by JU88

(Possibly <insert humour> when we or yourselves sold them to him)

Just abit of British syncism/sarcasm mate.

[August]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Economic aid, the sale of dual-use technology, non-U.S. origin weaponry, military intelligence, Special Operations training, and direct involvement in warfare against Iran.

This fact isn't exactly secret, new or in doubt.

Nor is relevant to what Catfish claimed. See post number 35.

[August]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Economic aid, the sale of dual-use technology, non-U.S. origin weaponry, military intelligence, Special Operations training, and direct involvement in warfare against Iran.

This fact isn't exactly secret, new or in doubt.

Nor is it relevant to Catfish's claim that we sold them ALL his WMD.

Originally Posted by JU_88

My mistake, it was approx 400 vets and 'thousands' of supporters. Anyway keep in mind Paul still got more donations from military personell than any of other candidates did. And that cam for Your media sources, not from any of that foreign muck.

A mix of several hundred vets and supporters was the non partisan tally. That's not very many from a group of Americans numbering in the tens of millions. Nor does it prove that those who did march were real veterans either.

Why should we believe anything anyone says?. Do you have a track record of being 100% right on every subject in GT? You are right sometimes but not always, nobody is.

Exactly that's why I don't lecture foreigners on what is happening in their own country whereas you seem to make a habit of it.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by August

Exactly that's why I don't lecture foreigners on what is happening in their own country whereas you seem to make a habit of it.

Ok and what about this thread? Weren't you just implying that the WMDs in Iraq were real and linking us to a non-US news source? How do you know there are no Iraqis reading this forum ?

[MH]

[August]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Ok and what about this thread? Weren't you just implying that the WMDs in Iraq were real and linking us to a non-US news source? How do you know there are no Iraqis reading this forum ?

If there are they hardly need a Brit to do their arguing for them.

[gimpy117]

Newsflash:
Leftover weapons USA gave Iraq back in the day finally cleaned up!

Oh wait...I think I just came up with the proper headline for this story. Hell, I'm sure we knew exactly what Saddam had because there is a good chance, I would venture, that WE gave it to him to fight Iran.

So know I never thought for a second this was a "breakthrough" in the reasoning for going to war. It's kinda like the actual yellowcake we found; and every person who still had an axe to grind about Bush basically lying to us went: "Ah-HA!"....except for the fact that we knew about it since the first Gulf War, and it was never even ever close to being weapons grade, nor was it used.

We got sold a load of bull, and now people who still wanna act like we didn't are taking any chance to retrospectively justify things. However, I feel like if you have to scour any little news headline after a 10 year war to somehow make up a reason for it...then it's probably safe to say it was a pointless war

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by August

Nor is it relevant to Catfish's claim that we sold them ALL his WMD.

It's very relevant to your question that implied that we didn't supply them with anything, and then your later claim that it was on a small scale and not under the auspices of the government and that the only thing we gave them was "some Anthrax samples as part of a vaccine development program."

Or you can try and narrow the question so far down so that you can claim that you're right and everything else is irrelevant - which is exactly what you're trying to do.

[August]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

It's very relevant to your question that implied that we didn't supply them with anything, and then your later claim that it was on a small scale and not under the auspices of the government.

I implied no such thing. I simply asked for evidence to back up his assertion that the United States Government sold Saddam ALL his weapons of mass destruction. If that somehow equals economic aid and the rest of it then I submit you are letting your usual bias affect your reading ability.

[MH]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

Newsflash:

Leftover weapons USA gave Iraq back in the day finally cleaned up!

Give Saddam some credit.