German court bans circumcision

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Well, technically speaking that would be Saturday.

In Euroland's calenders the week starts on a Monday.
However the TV Guide's week starts already on Saturday - we don't know if god is a big TV fan, so also better don't work on a Friday!

[Takeda Shingen]

We need to stop parents from getting their little girl's ears pierced. This sort of loblular multilation is nothing more than an archaic vanity practice from the dark ages of man. These parents are criminals, nothing more. When an individual comes of the age of majority, they can decide if they wish to undertake this barbaric practice on their own accord. Our children have a right not to have notions of societal conformity placed upon them until they themselves are informed enough to make that decision.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

We need to stop parents from getting their little girl's ears pierced. This sort of loblular multilation is nothing more than an archaic vanity practice from the dark ages of man. These parents are criminals, nothing more. When an individual comes of the age of majority, they can decide if they wish to undertake this barbaric practice on their own accord. Our children have a right not to have notions of societal conformity placed upon them until they themselves are informed enough to make that decision.

I think we had this example already in this topic.
An ear piercing hole is gone after 2,3 weeks and leaves only a tiny permanent mark, piercings in other body regions even close faster.
This is why I compared it to a tattoo.
So I ask again: If I worship a band, would it be ok to tattoo the logo onto my kid?

[August]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

We need to stop parents from getting their little girl's ears pierced. This sort of loblular multilation is nothing more than an archaic vanity practice from the dark ages of man. These parents are criminals, nothing more. When an individual comes of the age of majority, they can decide if they wish to undertake this barbaric practice on their own accord. Our children have a right not to have notions of societal conformity placed upon them until they themselves are informed enough to make that decision.

Agree. Add to that cutting their hair, trimming their toe and finger nails, making them brush their teeth or wear shoes, letting anyone paint their faces and especially dressing them up in cute little outfits.

[August]

Originally Posted by Penguin

...and leaves only a tiny permanent mark

Ahh Penguin, A foreskin is a pretty tiny thing too. Who gets to say how tiny a permanent mark has to be before it can be considered acceptable?

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by August

Ahh Penguin, A foreskin is a pretty tiny thing too. Who gets to say how tiny a permanent mark has to be before it can be considered acceptable?

I am not an expert, but I have the very strong feeling that most foreskins are bigger than a needle's diameter.
I would also see it critical, when parents would force streched earlobs on their kids.
The keyword is reversibility.

[August]

Originally Posted by Penguin

The keyword is reversibility.

But "permanent" implies IRreversible. By what right would anyone have to differentiate based on the size of a permanent mark?

And what about wearing shoes? It's medically proven to cause irreversible changes to the foot, leaving them so tender and weak that by the time the "victim" turns 18 he's pretty much forced to wear shoes, at least when he goes outside, for the rest of his life. I think that's a heckuva lot more intrusive, painful and permanent than some tiny snip of skin.

Are you Germans also going to go to all the primitive tribes around the world and tell them their ancient practices and rituals are criminal too?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

We need to stop parents from getting their little girl's ears pierced. This sort of loblular multilation is nothing more than an archaic vanity practice from the dark ages of man. These parents are criminals, nothing more. When an individual comes of the age of majority, they can decide if they wish to undertake this barbaric practice on their own accord. Our children have a right not to have notions of societal conformity placed upon them until they themselves are informed enough to make that decision.

Such a crap - from you...? Tak, you are better than that.

Sorry, but the things do not compare, and you should know that better. Not only is it hardly the parents, but the girls that want their mom'S to allow they getting an ear lobe pierced (or want a tatoo), but the piercing of an ear lobe does not compare to the removal of an integral part of the genital that has a protective function, a sexual function, and is not just some useless piece of skin, but comes along with 2-3 hundred meters (!) of nerve fibres, and in fact means the removal of not just a small piece of skin but up to one third of the penis' skin and especially the frenulum whichis a highly sensitive tissues - at the cost of intense pain (mind you: in most countries it still is egal to get it done without injection, and the tradiiton even demaqnds it to be done without injection), severe risk of medical complications that could cause additonal lifelong damage - additional to the obvious damage that is already done, plus infections making additonal surgery necessary, or criplling the sexuality of the baby/child in later years when it has become an adult.

If you compare that to piericing an ear lobe, then this shows how despertaely you cravy to find a reaosnbale arugment allowing mutolaiton of babies and children in the modern time anymore, on the asis of relgious ideology and superstititoion only, and enforced by social pressure of cultural perr groupos (Muslims, Jews) and fear by families for social isolation if they do not fulfill the command of the anonymous master in the sky.

It does not compare. Get it, please. It's so obvious and really not difficult to see. Promised.

In the Netherlands, Dutch medical profession have released a position paper and announcement that clearly expressed the Dutch doctors' opposition against medically non-indicated gentical surgery. In most countries of the West "cosmetical surgery" is forbidden below a certain age, even if the parents would allow it. In Germany, piercings, tatoos, branding are not allowed for teens below the age of 18 even if the parents would allow it. In Sweden, circumcision without injection is simply banned. The Swedes also have made a minimum age mandatory, I do not know though what age that is. And the essay I linked says that in whole Scandinavia the issue gets increasingly debated time and again since several years. I also linked an article today that says that the number of cirumcisions done in the Us has dropped from 90% of males in the 70s, to 50% in 2006 and 35% today. I referred earlier to the treend in Israel where a - since years slowly increaisng - number of secular Jews at leats have doubts and express criticism, admitting they do not do it for rtelgious reaosns, but only due to fear of social repressions. One third of Israelis are like that, a study from 2006 says.

The WHO gets quoted with saiyng that wordwide, 30% of all mmales are circumcised. OIfd these, 70% are Muslims, 1% are Jews, and 13% are american males not confessing to any religion. (February 2011).

Tak, you are a decent and intelligent guy. Please do not bother me with this strawman argument you just gave, this hollow rethoric. You know it better, I'm sure.

10 Thesen und Antithesen

Fragen und Antworten zu einem politischen Tabuthema

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Penguin

In Euroland's calenders the week starts on a Monday.
However the TV Guide's week starts already on Saturday - we don't know if god is a big TV fan, so also better don't work on a Friday!

In Jewish tradition Saturday is the Sabbath. The Christians started worshipping on Sunday because according to tradition that is the day Jesus rose from the dead, so it is commonly called 'The Lord's Day'.

In Spanish Saturday is still called Sabados.

[mapuc]

The debate about circumcision of boys are also being debated in Denmark. Here are a majority in the Danish parliament for a ban on circumcision. The last few days I have via the Internet, newspapers, radio and television witnessed much fiery discussion about this.

Parliament will not implement a ban until they have explored all Aspekte in this delicate topic

Each side must be heard.

Markus

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Such a crap - from you...? Tak, you are better than that.

Sorry, but the things do not compare, and you should know that better. Not only is it hardly the parents, but the girls that want their mom'S to allow they getting an ear lobe pierced (or want a tatoo), but the piercing of an ear lobe does not compare to the removal of an integral part of the genital that has a protective function, a sexual function, and is not just some useless piece of skin, but comes along with 2-3 hundred meters (!) of nerve fibres, and in fact means the removal of not just a small piece of skin but up to one third of the penis' skin and especially the frenulum whichis a highly sensitive tissues - at the cost of intense pain (mind you: in most countries it still is egal to get it done without injection, and the tradiiton even demaqnds it to be done without injection), severe risk of medical complications that could cause additonal lifelong damage - additional to the obvious damage that is already done, plus infections making additonal surgery necessary, or criplling the sexuality of the baby/child in later years when it has become an adult.

If you compare that to piericing an ear lobe, then this shows how despertaely you cravy to find a reaosnbale arugment allowing mutolaiton of babies and children in the modern time anymore, on the asis of relgious ideology and superstititoion only, and enforced by social pressure of cultural perr groupos (Muslims, Jews) and fear by families for social isolation if they do not fulfill the command of the anonymous master in the sky.

It does not compare. Get it, please. It's so obvious and really not difficult to see. Promised.

In the Netherlands, Dutch medical profession have released a position paper and announcement that clearly expressed the Dutch doctors' opposition against medically non-indicated gentical surgery. In most countries of the West "cosmetical surgery" is forbidden below a certain age, even if the parents would allow it. In Germany, piercings, tatoos, branding are not allowed for teens below the age of 18 even if the parents would allow it. In Sweden, circumcision without injection is simply banned. The Swedes also have made a minimum age mandatory, I do not know though what age that is. And the essay I linked says that in whole Scandinavia the issue gets increasingly debated time and again since several years. I also linked an article today that says that the number of cirumcisions done in the Us has dropped from 90% of males in the 70s, to 50% in 2006 and 35% today. I referred earlier to the treend in Israel where a - since years slowly increaisng - number of secular Jews at leats have doubts and express criticism, admitting they do not do it for rtelgious reaosns, but only due to fear of social repressions. One third of Israelis are like that, a study from 2006 says.

The WHO gets quoted with saiyng that wordwide, 30% of all mmales are circumcised. OIfd these, 70% are Muslims, 1% are Jews, and 13% are american males not confessing to any religion. (February 2011).

Tak, you are a decent and intelligent guy. Please do not bother me with this strawman argument you just gave, this hollow rethoric. You know it better, I'm sure.

10 Thesen und Antithesen

Fragen und Antworten zu einem politischen Tabuthema

It isn't hollow. I know plenty of parents that take their 2-year-olds to get their ears pierced. Are the children making that decision? Is this not mulitlation of the ears? Are we not shoving a metal rod through one's earlobe? Is mutilation not mulitlation? Or is your anger now that you see the flaw in your argument through the example of absurdity? Are you unable to see past your own hatred? It is you that jumps through the hoops to make an artificial distinction.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

It isn't hollow. I know plenty of parents that take their 2-year-olds to get their ears pierced. Are the children making that decision? Is this not mulitlation of the ears? Are we not shoving a metal rod through one's earlobe? Is mutilation not mulitlation? Or is your anger now that you see the flaw in your argument through the example of absurdity? Are you unable to see past your own hatred? It is you that jumps through the hoops to make an artificial distinction.

I never heared of any people piercing the ear lobes of their 2 year old. Maybe I live in a too protected and clean and tidy part of the world. And yes, stitching the earslobes of 2 year old is questionable. Seems they want the cuty-cute look for their sugarbabies. Well. That is more about the parents than about the children. And that is never something good, when parents educate their kids not to the kid's welbeing, but the wellbeing of the parents. Becasue kids are not thewir parents' belongings.

But that is not the point anyway. The point is that genital mutilation, the according pain, functional alteration, shame and psychological experience in general, - DO NOT COMPARE TO quick-piercing AN EARLOBE. An earlobe is unsensitivetive, relatively, and the functionality of the ear is not altered at all. So in principle the parents indeed should not pierce their children, yes - but even if they do, it does not compare to genital mutilation.

Or do you compare cutting fingernails to amputating let'S say every third finger...?

Man, come back to your senses. If I get a razorblade and cut you 3 mm deep into your arm, let'S say 3 cm long, a scratch that is, and afterwards I do the same kind of cut to your youknowwhat, I am absolutely certain you will immediately realise the difference in sensational quality.

Better believe me that without trying it out first. I fell into a slope of barbed wire when I was 20, left some marks on my back and side - but that was a pain one could handle. I am certain that a circumcision would feel - less friendly...
Earlobes - I thought I was dreaming when reading that...

Or is your anger now that you see the flaw in your argument through the example of absurdity?

What is worse is the absurdity he now object to being used as a comparison is one that he was using as a comparison already in the topic.
Does that make it self evident that the reasoning of Skybird in this matter is fundamentally flawed?

Earlobes - I thought I was dreaming when reading that...

Maybe you was dreaming when you brought it up first.
Come to think of it including your very first post on the topic how many times have you made that exact comparison you are now running from?

[August]

The point is that genital mutilation, the according pain, functional alteration, shame and psychological experience in general

There is so much crap in this statement that it needs a whole roll of toilet paper. Shame and psychological experience indeed.

Unlike some here I'm speaking about something I have personal experience with. I was circumcised at an early age and I know that there is absolutely no shame or psychic trauma or pain involved and my wiener works just fine thank you very much.

It's just another opportunity for Skybird to slam religion but do it this time under cover of a faux concern for the poor little children. Remember this is the guy who advocated assasinating the children of Burmese generals just to teach them a lesson.

[u crank]

I would ask this question.

Which is worse, having a baby circumcised or plunking your child in front of a TV set for endless hours of mindless tripe? Allowing your child to eat junk food and get no physical exercise? Teaching your child by example and behavior to be a racist, homophobic, misogynic and lazy citizen? Teaching your child by example that some how society owes you something and you have no social responsibility? Allowing your child to grow up without showing them any love or affection? I could go on. And on.

Until a state/government/court can address these kinds of abuse and neglect and actually do something about it, I would consider circumcision way down the list of things that would be detrimental to a child's welfare.

If every single man who was ever circumcised had a complaint, okay something is wrong. We know that's not the case.

Why then is this an issue? Considering the fact that most circumcisions are for religious reasons .....hmm...