The gathering storm

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Who's Pat, and why should i care? Honestly, I ask that question about any "celebrity" or "personality" i see in any media.

Honestly? Some commentator called him a verbal daisy-cutter, which he is indeed. A standoff-comedian and stage script writer. Atheist, and vegetarian. Member of the British Humanist Association. I think I took it somewhere he is friend with Richard Dawkins. He is member of or at least campaigns for the europe-sceptical UK Independence Party, which I have some sympathy for, although I am not British. Some people tried to claim his videos for the BNP, which he always has furiously defended himself against, leaving no doubt that he wants to have nothing to do with the BNP, Neonazis, white supremacists, the KKK and the like. His videos also are sometimes posted by posters on behalf of the English Defence League, I am not in knowledge whether he gets hijacked by them like by the BNP, or is indeed associated with them (which I cannot really imagine, by the few info I have on the EDL). He is not in that kind of Nazi BNP business and in some videos found very clear words for what he thinks about this kind of Nazi breed. To Condell, Islam can only be get rid of by getting rid of the three desert dogmas and their organisations alltogether, which of course includes the christian club of organised crime, the churches. He is also associated to Richard Dawkin's foundation.

I use to agree with his points in a felt 95% of all details. The few disagreements are such that I can tolerate their existence and leave it to that.

[Skybird]

I have researched a bit on the English Defence League and do not like it much, seems to be a very unfriendly kind of right extremist breed, or am I wrong? And Pat Condell seems to not like them either. I also find that some strangers post several of Pat's videos and change the titles and the author to something as if the video or Pat were connected to the EDL. However, if you check the same video as it was originally posted by Pat himself on his very own Youtube channel, you see that such references all are not there. So some people seem to hijack him for their own agendas, either to benefit from him in their own intentions, or to give him bad name by trying to compromise his reputation.

I have replaced the link in the first post with the link to the original first posting of the video by Pat himself on his channel, therefore. The link I stumbled over and had posted first, was such a hijacked one. If you find videos by him with mentioning of the EDL in the title, be aware that these are hijacked videos, and not link to his own channel. I have found no hint whatever that he is in favour of the EDL or has anything to do with them. EDL on the one hand and the British Humanist Association or the UKIP on the other wouldn't go well together anyway, nor did I get the impression that the EDL can raise that much so that it could meet these organisations or the qualification of people like Dawkins, Hitchens or Condell on same eye level.

Rufmord, we call it in German. Or defamation.

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Can't disagree with any of it. Although to be honest, voting for freedom or independent parties is a waste of time in the British system because they do not have the ability to gather the support required.
Yes, they have gained ground in the past few years, but they are still lightyears away from having any legitimate power.

The political class, as he calls them, have too much power to be toppled, they control the Armed forces, they control the police, and any organised attempt to remove them would be quashed without support from either.

That's why so many people in the UK just can't be bothered to vote any more, because there's no point.

Try the American system for a spell, and wait until a fillibuster happens on an important bill for no other reason than to discredit the executive branch. So their party can get in office later on.

I always thought a parliamentiary system was fairer. The people decided what they wanted, no partisan crap. The people got what they voted for, and if it don't work, we can try the other side. In Murica, the other side spends money pasting the opponnent, trying to get thier boys in offce, and nothing gets done.

I actually envy europe, I feel you guys have a better choice than we do. Even when our side wins, we still lose, and nothing gets done, and progress gets snowballed.

[Egan]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I have researched a bit on the English Defence League and do not like it much, seems to be a very unfriendly kind of right extremist breed, or am I wrong?
Rufmord

From what I remember, a number of their higher up members have ties to the BNP. Basically, they are right wing bootboys who try to pretend they are multi-cultural, but really, really aren't. In their early days, there were a number of groups such as Jewish organizations and Gay rights groups who believed they had common ground with them but many of those groups have removed themselves from any form of support. I would recommend trawling the archives at Harrys Place to find out more. They aren't very pleasant, as some of the videos of them terrorizing Muslim youths in various branches of Macdonalds will testify.

To me they always seemed like the sort of right wingers who claimed to support Israel only because they thought it gave them a mandate to hate Muslims as Socialists.

I can't speak about Condell, but I'd be surprised if Dawkins was any form of fan for the EDL. As a big Hitchens fanboi I would say it would be a cold day in hell that he would have ever given any form of support to such fascist scum.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Egan

From what I remember, a number of their higher up members have ties to the BNP. Basically, they are right wing bootboys who try to pretend they are multi-cultural, but really, really aren't. In their early days, there were a number of groups such as Jewish organizations and Gay rights groups who believed they had common ground with them but many of those groups have removed themselves from any form of support. I would recommend trawling the archives at Harrys Place to find out more. They aren't very pleasant, as some of the videos of them terrorizing Muslim youths in various branches of Macdonalds will testify.

To me they always seemed like the sort of right wingers who claimed to support Israel only because they thought it gave them a mandate to hate Muslims as Socialists.

Then it is clear that Pat cannot be linked to them. He has attacked the BNP repeatedly, clearly and left no doubt on what he thinks of them. Even more underhanded to link him to them, then.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

I actually envy europe, I feel you guys have a better choice than we do. Even when our side wins, we still lose, and nothing gets done, and progress gets snowballed.

What makes you think it is different here? Its pretty much the same principle mechanisms corrupting the system, just with another face. Your rules get eroded and broken, our rules get eroded and broken. You are bancrupt, we are bancrupt. Your leaders are corrupt, our leaders are corrupt. Your freedom gets destroyed, our freedom gets destroyed.

Fight where you are, you must not search battle elsewhere. It'S everywhere around these days. Any arena is as good or as hopeless than any other. Refuse to obey the wanted decisions and opinions that they claim are expected from you. The only important thing would be that you, and people, start to resist the system, and deny it any further legitimation to proceed with its crime against the common good and people's interest. Europe will and cannot save you. And since the fight is not militarily, the US cannot save Europe again anymore, too.

[Egan]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Then it is clear that Pat cannot be linked to them. He has attacked the BNP repeatedly, clearly and left no doubt on what he thinks of them. Even more underhanded to link him to them, then.

But that's their entire Modus operandi: To seem like they garner support from moderates on both sides of the political divide when they really don't. They try to make themselves look like they are anti Islamist when, in reality, they are really just another bovver boy far right group who pretty much have it in for all non whites. In many ways, they are exactly the same as the football casuals of the late 80's except with some added political nastiness. As for political ties, I know there was a UKIP councilor somewhere in the north of England who enlisted EDL aid in a demo earlier in the year. I'll try and find a link to it on HP but I don't know how far back their archives go.

EDIT: Found it. http://hurryupharry.org/2012/05/04/u...-dudley-north/

Although there are also Welsh and Scottish splinter groups, they don't really number any more than a handful of members. Unfortunately I see the EDL becoming an increasing problem in England, in the north in particular.

I have researched a bit on the English Defence League and do not like it much

Yet you posted a link to their youtube channel as you both seem to like like what Condell says.
Could be worse you could have linked to some racist complaining about black people again because you got upset by a soccer match and wanted a link to express your shared views

seems to be a very unfriendly kind of right extremist breed

they say the same as you say and the same as he says which says a lot about what is being said by all of you.

So some people seem to hijack him for their own agendas, either to benefit from him in their own intentions, or to give him bad name by trying to compromise his reputation.

If they are all saying the same they all have a similar agenda.
flocking with crows wasn't it by their company you shall know them...the truth according to skybird which unfortunately turns round bites him again and again

I know there was a UKIP councilor somewhere in the north of England who enlisted EDL aid in a demo earlier in the year. I'll try and find a link to it on HP but I don't know how far back their archives go.

But hold on Sky said the UKIP are Ok and they just like what Pat says, they can't share the same views as the EDL can they as that would mean they are both just nationalist right wing populists

[Skybird]

Wikipedia links EDL to the hooligan scene. But the two wikipedia entries indeed are all I know about the EDL and UKIP, and I will not form final opinions or chose sides on basis of Wikipedia entries alone, even more so when considering that these days labels like "rightwing populistic" and "Islamophobia" for the most are abused as combat tools to silence unwanted criticism of political mainstream and Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Defence_League

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKIP

As far as all this still concerns Pat, it should be interesting to know that once he even held a party membership for Labour - before he got sane. Can one believe it?! I assumer we all sinned a bit in our youth, didn'ÄT we. I once was a member of the JU, that is the youth organisation of the CDU. I'm not pporud of it, but I say in my defence that it did not hold long, not even one year, then I knew enough.

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by Skybird

What makes you think it is different here? Its pretty much the same principle mechanisms corrupting the system, just with another face. Your rules get eroded and broken, our rules get eroded and broken. You are bancrupt, we are bancrupt. Your leaders are corrupt, our leaders are corrupt. Your freedom gets destroyed, our freedom gets destroyed.

Fight where you are, you must not search battle elsewhere. It'S everywhere around these days. Any arena is as good or as hopeless than any other. Refuse to obey the wanted decisions and opinions that they claim are expected from you. The only important thing would be that you, and people, start to resist the system, and deny it any further legitimation to proceed with its crime against the common good and people's interest. Europe will and cannot save you. And since the fight is not militarily, the US cannot save Europe again anymore, too.

It may be a "grass is greener on the other side" thing, or it may be a "time for radical change" thing.

No matter how I explain it , it comes down to rebellion, I now fear our patriot act, and an indefinate stay in detention with no charges.

I was uhhh....Kidding? Yeah!

Hey at least you guys don't have GITMO, my new home soon.

[Egan]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Yet you posted a link to their youtube channel as you both seem to like like what Condell says.
Could be worse you could have linked to some racist complaining about black people again because you got upset by a soccer match and wanted a link to express your shared views


they say the same as you say and the same as he says which says a lot about what is being said by all of you.


If they are all saying the same they all have a similar agenda.
flocking with crows wasn't it by their company you shall know them...the truth according to skybird which unfortunately turns round bites him again and again





But hold on Sky said the UKIP are Ok and they just like what Pat says, they can't share the same views as the EDL can they as that would mean they are both just nationalist right wing populists

Tim Montgomery wrote a great article in the times about UKIP recently, if you have the patience and money to track it down through it's paywall. Puts to bed some myths about them for good.

I love it when he does the occasional piece in the Guardian. Gets them frothing in craziness on Comment is Free and almost makes up for them publishing Seamus Milne.

[Egan]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Wikipedia links EDL to the hooligan scene. But the two wikipedia entries indeed are all I know about the EDL and UKIP, and I will not form final opinions or chose sides on basis of Wikipedia entries alone, even more so when considering that these days labels like "rightwing populistic" and "Islamophobia" for the most are abused as combat tools to silence unwanted criticism of political mainstream and Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Defence_League

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKIP

As far as all this still concerns Pat, it should be interesting to know that once he even held a party membership for Labour - before he got sane. Can one believe it?! I assumer we all sinned a bit in our youth, didn'ÄT we. I once was a member of the JU, that is the youth organisation of the CDU. I'm not pporud of it, but I say in my defence that it did not hold long, not even one year, then I knew enough.

Well, there are some good guys in the Labour party. There are good guys in all the main parties - even the Tories....

[Skybird]

A quick research leaves me standing on my guard, regarding "Stand For Peace". First, because I prefer "Stand for Freedom" over "Stand for Peace" (without freedom, peace or anything else is nothing), and second because this Hasan Afzal still leaves me with doubts over him. Reminds me of a German pendant to him that we have, Abdel Samad, a friend of one of my favourite German commentators, Henryk Broder. Samad is no bad guy, just hopelessly naive over Islam that he criticises but hopes to lead on the path of reform and virtue. And that misidentifying of Islam'S nature makes me just laugh in bitterness these days.

But all that is no final opinion of mine about SFP and Afzal, just a first and second impression.

[yubba]

Stand your ground, stand in numbers, stand for good, pick up the ones who can't stand for themselves, no body and no government is entitled to take anything away from you. We didn't ask these people too spend us into oblivion, they did it all on their own, we need to tell them, enough is enough.

Egan, we just had Farange turn up over here to show UKIP support for a no vote in our upcoming referendum.
The campaign was going badly enough without that idiot "helping".

Well, there are some good guys in the Labour party. There are good guys in all the main parties - even the Tories..

Watch out for the Green party though, Sky warned us that its all a secret conspiracy by errrrrr..... catholics
Then again that "conspiracy theory" sounds like the sort of thing you would find on a BNP forum isn't it.