Happy War of 1812 Day.

[yubba]

Well it needs to be international, less we forget, so we are not destend to repeat our mistakes.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by yubba

Well it needs to be international, less we forget, so we are not destend to repeat our mistakes.

That, Yubba, is something I think we can ALL agree on.

[Jimbuna]

Another interesting topic/conversation takes place whilst old buna is in his sack recovering from a drink or three

Starting to get a little paranoid

God Save the Queen

[Osmium Steele]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

God Save the Queen

Why? Is she sick?

[TarJak]

Yeah she's sick of being reminded of British defeats.

Oh OK so 1812 was probably more a draw that anything.

[Bilge_Rat]

In Canada, the war of 1812 is seen as a victory because American invasion attempts were repulsed. In 1812 and 1813, U.S. armies, often with a large numerical superiority attempted to overrun Ontario or Quebec, but were beaten by a handful of British regulars supported by local volunteers.

Next year will be the 200th anniversary of the Battle of Chateauguay where a British/Canadian force of 1500 defeated an American Army of 4,000 attempting to capture Montreal.

As to why Canadians stayed loyal to the Crown, 80-90% of the population was made up of Catholic French-Canadians. The most important local insitution at the time was the Catholic Church. The Church trusted the British who in 1763 had granted religious freedoms to Catholics, maintained french civil law and, more importantly, guaranteed the status of the Church.

The Church did not trust the U.S.A for a variety of reasons: fear of any revolutionary movement, especially after the excesses of the French Revolution; and fear of American protestant religious zealots which were (and still are ) influential on the U.S. Government.

That would be British Canada in 1812 it was a British colony at the time not a free nation and at that time territory used by an enemy of the United Sates so it was not a stupid strategy.Also the British where threatening American trade prior to the war and these actions where the primary cause of the conflict.

Most of he primary causes of the war were settled before the war started, those that were not settled before the war started were still not settled when both sides called it a draw (or in "military terms" a waste of time) in their peace treaty.

Actually the US was ill prepared for the start yet we did still win the war you don't have to win every battle:

It was ill prepared at the start even though Madison and Congress had been planning it for a whole year before they declared whereas Britain was commited elsewhere and totally unprepared on that front. And they didn't win, it says so in the peace treaty of status quo which your government agreed to.

The War of 1812 gave a dramatic boost to the manufacturing capabilities of the United States.

what has a wartime boost to domestic manufacturing got to do with the devestation of its international trade?
Plus of course the temporary boost in domestic manufacturing for local consumption led to a post war slump in that very sector when the import market re-opened.
But hey going from nearly a million tons down to 60,000 in your primary business over 3 years must be good for finances eh?

In the end it was the actions of the British government that caused the war in the first place to protect its sovereignty the US had no choice but to declare war.

In the end it was both government playing silly buggers that caused the war, but that is normally the case isn't it.

Don't make me refer you to my old thread in which I thoroughly refuted that argument.

But Steve it doesn't refute that arguement and doesn't even go near the trade angle (which lets face it was the other war aim)

Control of the lakes is no good without control of the land and control of the land is no good without control of the lakes.
Since the main US aim of the whole fiasco from the very start was to sieze upper and lower canada through a land invasion, the fact that the land invasions got battered repeatedly means they got their butt kicked.

Overcoming the Provincial Marine was a good achievement, but not unexpected given the nature of that arm and it was still useless in real terms as the aim was not to control the lakes but to sieze the land.

Starting to get a little paranoid

You are not paranoid, it is true, but they are trying to keep it secret from you.

[Sailor Steve]

Yes, the Americans thought to take Canada, or at least get the Canadians to join them, and we failed. The other side is what the British expected, which was to either bring America back into the fold or to teach us a lesson we'd never forget. As Wellington pointed out, they only thing he could accomplish would be to sign the peace treaty they should already be signing anyway. As far as Britain's goals were concerned America won that war hands down, no question, no argument. Britain lost everything they tried to gain and helped set America on the road to greatness.

I see you guys are ignoring me. I have to quote myself directly:

Not at all. look at that first bit and see the problem straight away. you can break it all down into all or any of the stated aims, look at each one.
two simple questions then follow.
1. was it sorted beforehand?
if yes then discard, if no then question 2.
2.was it sorted in the peace treaty?
if yes line it up in the win category if no put it with all the war aims you already threw in the discard pile.

If you then look at a big pile of discards and bugger all in the win category then the only answer is status quo


damn, you edited. you mean the aims they took on later.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Not at all.

I realize you had addressed that and was already rewriting before you posted. Bad thing about the interwebs: They let you cross your wires before you even know it's happening.

And it's all a matter of perspective. If by "the aims they took on later" you mean "the victor writes the history", then you have to concede that we won.

If by "the aims they took on later" you mean "the victor writes the history", then you have to concede that we won.

Naughty boy.

But you are right about perspective, after all the "big event" was really just a sideshow that arose due to another conflictand was settled when Britain sorted that other conflict.
Put it another way with another conflict, Britain achieved its war aims when it defeated vichy france after germany invaded poland. or maybe Britain lost the war because poland was still buggered by continuing occupation after 1945

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

.. America won that war hands down, no question, no argument.

Let me see if I understand this correctly.... the U.S. tried to invade Canada and failed miserably, even with overwhelming superiority, even losing the upper Mississippi region in the process all the way down to Missouri....then wound up fighting a desparate defensive battle to save New Orleans which turned out to be after the peace treaty had been signed anyway...and YOU WON !?!?

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Let me see if I understand this correctly.... the U.S. tried to invade Canada and failed miserably, even with overwhelming superiority, even losing the upper Mississippi region in the process all the way down to Missouri....then wound up fighting a desparate defensive battle to save New Orleans which turned out to be after the peace treaty had been signed anyway...and YOU WON !?!?

it's the magic of being american

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by joegrundman

it's the magic of being american

Well the British forces also where not aware that the treaty had been accepted so the Battle of New Orleans was not a miscommunication the treaty was not ratified by the Senate until February 16, 1815 the battle occurred on January 8, 1815. They did not have instant communication back in those days after all.

The British had already ratified it but until the other side does so as well the conflict is still on.There where troops in WWI that died just hours before the end. In those days the victor almost always got to keep any lands gained in battle so if the US had just allowed the British to take New Orleans they would have kept it more than likely.

[August]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Let me see if I understand this correctly.... the U.S. tried to invade Canada and failed miserably, even with overwhelming superiority, even losing the upper Mississippi region in the process all the way down to Missouri....then wound up fighting a desparate defensive battle to save New Orleans which turned out to be after the peace treaty had been signed anyway...and YOU WON !?!?

You guys stopped illegally boarding our ships and kidnapping our sailors and you stopped getting the Indians to raid our frontier homesteads.

That's a win in my book.