Unnarmed 17 year old shot dead "in self defence"

AngusJS · 03-20-12, 09:15 PM

I'm so glad we live in an armed society. I feel so safe, knowing that nuts like Zimmerman are running around with guns.

yubba · 03-20-12, 09:47 PM

I live on the coast of florida, and there isn't a day that goes by, I see on the morning news that, are one or two shootings, at least one leading too death, due to robberys, home invasions, drug deals gone wrong, arguements and a host of other crap in central florida, we just buried a female deputy sherriff last week here in Bervard County, some young black kid stealing furniture from a hotel shot her in the face, like I said before more americans die here in central florida than any war zone. If the Fed does come down here they need to take a good look at their welfare state that they have created.

August · 03-20-12, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngusJS

I'm so glad we live in an armed society. I feel so safe, knowing that nuts like Zimmerman are running around with guns.

You could always move to a more civilized country like France and get mowed down by a masked scooter rider.

Stealhead · 03-20-12, 10:31 PM

Funny you should say that because there have been numerous shooting sprees in the US of equally bad or worse proportions and it seems that the fact in the US in many states that someone else might have a concealed carry weapon seems to have little bearing on the attackers thought process.

The super hard core everyone should carry a gun types try to say "oh if only more people could carry guns this kind of thing would not happen". More like it would have no effect if some nut is gong to run around shooting people as in France or in Arizona they are going to run around shooting people.

It is really disappointing when we are talking about a case that is clearly very questionable where someone went past the law regarding self defense and yet you still see people wanting to argue why people need more guns and less regulation and you have an example in your face of someone that should at least not have had a conceal carry permit in my opinion anything on your record involving trouble with law enforcement should keep you at least from gaining a carry permit.

I am a gun owner myself and this incident disgusts me.Too bad this Zimmerman did not try this on me because he'd have been facing a gun.

August · 03-20-12, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Funny you should say that because there have been numerous shooting sprees in the US of equally bad or worse proportions and it seems that the fact in the US in many states that someone else might have a concealed carry weapon seems to have little bearing on the attackers thought process.

Really? How do you calculate those who are dissuaded from committing a crime because their potential victim may be armed?

Quote:

The super hard core everyone should carry a gun types try to say "oh if only more people could carry guns this kind of thing would not happen". More like it would have no effect if some nut is gong to run around shooting people as in France or in Arizona they are going to run around shooting people.

I'd say its really more like if victims are armed they're not as easily killed by some nut who is going to be able to get a gun regardless of whatever law you enact.

Quote:

It is really disappointing when we are talking about a case that is clearly very questionable where someone went past the law regarding self defense and yet you still see people wanting to argue why people need more guns and less regulation and you have an example in your face of someone that should at least not have had a conceal carry permit in my opinion anything on your record involving trouble with law enforcement should keep you at least from gaining a carry permit.

I haven't seen anyone argue for more guns and less regulation here in this thread so I have to wonder who you are talking about.

gimpy117 · 03-21-12, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Really? How do you calculate those who are dissuaded from committing a crime because their potential victim may be armed?

I'd say its really more like if victims are armed they're not as easily killed by some nut who is going to be able to get a gun regardless of whatever law you enact.

I haven't seen anyone argue for more guns and less regulation here in this thread so I have to wonder who you are talking about.

I just don't agree with the idea, it's a nice thought but, people who go on shooting sprees pretty much don't care and it's a moot point...you can't walk into a shopping mall and have made sure EVERYONE is unarmed. Premeditated murder as well is mostly the same idea, If someone wanted to kill me, they would do it when im not awake or otherwise armed...so either you have to post watch 24/7 or have a loaded gun under your pillow, or this whole self defense idea is pretty wishy washy. I remember a cop who was killed in my home town by his wife in his sleep. he's armed almost 24/7 and his wife still offed him...with his own gun. (actually my mom was on that jury for his trial)

and I keep waiting for that magical Mythical news story where the one superman packing heat saves the day. But I haven't seen one, not to say it's never happened, but as much as it touted that having a gun with you at all times will save you from everything up to and maybe including a nuclear apocalypse just seems not to be all that true or even common.

but i really think though this whole "stand your ground law" is complete folly it's pointless. it's like that old episode of south park where i think it was Stan's uncle are taking the boys hunting and they shoot all these endangered animals legally simply by yelling "oh my god it's coming right at us" before hand. It's just like that in Florida it seems, only with people.

Aramike · 03-21-12, 12:15 AM

Here's a great, fairly recent, local story of a man who may have saved the lives of others put at risk by criminals who wouldn't give a damn if guns were illegal:

http://www.wisn.com/news/30374159/detail.html

gimpy117 · 03-21-12, 12:42 AM

well thats good.

but that's still

armed civilians: 1 Crazed gunmen: A bunch

oh by the way, happy birthday man or yesterday that is

Osmium Steele · 03-21-12, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimpy117

but i really think though this whole "stand your ground law" is complete folly it's pointless. it's like that old episode of south park...

It is nothing like that at all.

In Fla law, previous to SYG if you were accosted, threatened, etc. and you "could" run away you were obliged to do so. You did not have the right to stand your ground.

Heaven help you if you actually struck first and disarmed, or otherwise incapacitated your assailant, because Florida law did not have your back. You just committed a felony and could be sued by your attacker for costs and damages. It happened numerous times.

Stand Your Ground changed that.

yubba · 03-21-12, 08:07 AM

I was listening to the Bill Mic live radio show here on the coast of florida it sounds like there is wittnesses seeing Zimmerman being beaten by the kid or fighting with, before the shot was fired. So I think we all better get our facts straight before we hang someone, so I guess the media will fan the flames of racism, some other media outlets will have the story about the witnesses seeing the fight. I haven't the time too look for this right now just reporting what I heard

Bubblehead1980 · 03-21-12, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osmium Steele

It is nothing like that at all.

In Fla law, previous to SYG if you were accosted, threatened, etc. and you "could" run away you were obliged to do so. You did not have the right to stand your ground.

Heaven help you if you actually struck first and disarmed, or otherwise incapacitated your assailant, because Florida law did not have your back. You just committed a felony and could be sued by your attacker for costs and damages. It happened numerous times.

Stand Your Ground changed that.

Exactly what I have said in several posts, there were people prosecuted for just defending themselves! I grew up in Florida, I remember a few such cases in my hometown.

Aramike · 03-20-12, 11:06 PM

The topic slightly aside, I've never completely understood why gun crime has always inevitably led to a gun control discussion. If someone owns a gun legally or not, USING it illegally is still ILLEGAL. Ergo, what makes anyone think that those who would break laws regarding gun usage would simply follow laws regarding gun possession?

People should have the right to choose to be able to defend themselves with a firearm. I believe that 100%. However, they should also be held accountable when they engage in violence against others that is not in defense. Whether or not they are allowed to LEGALLY possess the capability shouldn't be the issue, because hey - if they are willing to commit murder, why wouldn't they be willing to illegally own a gun?

It's an age-old argument, but it's completely true - banning firearms only disarms law-abiding citizens. The individual in question may turn out to not be such a citizen.

Sailor Steve · 03-20-12, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngusJS

I'm so glad we live in an armed society. I feel so safe, knowing that nuts like Zimmerman are running around with guns.

How magnanimous of you to turn a tragedy into yet another gun control argument. In some cases a gun really is an answer, deterrent, solution. In others, not so much.

Oh, is this just a drive-by troll, or do you have something useful to add?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

The super hard core everyone should carry a gun types try to say "oh if only more people could carry guns this kind of thing would not happen". More like it would have no effect if some nut is gong to run around shooting people as in France or in Arizona they are going to run around shooting people.

I am a gun owner myself and this incident disgusts me.Too bad this Zimmerman did not try this on me because he'd have been facing a gun.

Interesting dance. On one hand you take people to task for insisting that more guns are the answer (when, as August pointed out, no one in this thread has done that), but on the other hand you say that you wish he had tried it on you because you have a gun. So, more gun ownership is not the answer but you having one is?

Stealhead · 03-20-12, 11:28 PM

I though my point was more clear Steve.I am saying the requirements to be allowed to obtain a concealed carry permit should be much stricter.A person should no criminal record and they really should be evaluated for any possible physiological issues and there should be a much more extensive course training a person what they can and can not do legally as is most states it takes an afternoon.

I am saying that this Zimmerman seems to be so aggressive in his actions that he could easily have gotten into a gun vs. gun situation with a person that was following the self defense laws to the T unlike Zimmerman.And for the record i do have a conceal carry and I do carry when I am working in certain areas of the state I work in refrigeration as well so it not outside the realm of possibility that someone could attempt to rob me to gain the several thousand dollars in tools,refrigeration tanks and large amounts of copper that my truck contains(I do not have the gun on me while on private property I lock it away in the truck inside a case.) nor is it impossible that some overzealous nut see me doing my job and think that I am about to commit a crime seeing as people in my industry work in places where most people ought not be.Of course I am half white and half Iranian Lor and thank god I appear white and not like a "rag head" becuase there are some nut jobs that probably would shoot me under certain circumstances if I did look more stereo typically "rag headish".

Sailor Steve · 03-20-12, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

I though my point was more clear Steve.I am saying the requirements to be allowed to obtain a concealed carry permit should be much stricter.A person should no criminal record and they really should be evaluated for any possible physiological issues and there should be a much more extensive course training a person what they can and can not do legally as is most states it takes an afternoon.

But you didn't say that. You went on a diatribe against the people who say this proves we need more guns, when no one here tried to say that.

As for making it harder to get a permit, would that affect this case? Did this guy have a criminal record? Would a psychological evaluation have turned up anything? I don't know. Maybe he went through all that, and managed to fool the system. It's obvious now that he has serious problems, but was it obvious the day he got the permit?

03-20-12, 10:31 PM	#4
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Funny you should say that because there have been numerous shooting sprees in the US of equally bad or worse proportions and it seems that the fact in the US in many states that someone else might have a concealed carry weapon seems to have little bearing on the attackers thought process. The super hard core everyone should carry a gun types try to say "oh if only more people could carry guns this kind of thing would not happen". More like it would have no effect if some nut is gong to run around shooting people as in France or in Arizona they are going to run around shooting people. It is really disappointing when we are talking about a case that is clearly very questionable where someone went past the law regarding self defense and yet you still see people wanting to argue why people need more guns and less regulation and you have an example in your face of someone that should at least not have had a conceal carry permit in my opinion anything on your record involving trouble with law enforcement should keep you at least from gaining a carry permit. I am a gun owner myself and this incident disgusts me.Too bad this Zimmerman did not try this on me because he'd have been facing a gun. Last edited by Stealhead; 03-20-12 at 10:42 PM.

03-21-12, 12:42 AM	#8
gimpy117 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Kalamazoo, MI Posts: 3,243 Downloads: 108 Uploads: 0	well thats good. but that's still armed civilians: 1 Crazed gunmen: A bunch oh by the way, happy birthday man or yesterday that is __________________ Member of the Subsim Zombie Army

03-20-12, 09:15 PM	#1
AngusJS Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 746 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	I'm so glad we live in an armed society. I feel so safe, knowing that nuts like Zimmerman are running around with guns.

03-20-12, 09:47 PM	#2
yubba Admiral Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: in a neighborhood near you Posts: 2,478 Downloads: 293 Uploads: 2	I live on the coast of florida, and there isn't a day that goes by, I see on the morning news that, are one or two shootings, at least one leading too death, due to robberys, home invasions, drug deals gone wrong, arguements and a host of other crap in central florida, we just buried a female deputy sherriff last week here in Bervard County, some young black kid stealing furniture from a hotel shot her in the face, like I said before more americans die here in central florida than any war zone. If the Fed does come down here they need to take a good look at their welfare state that they have created.

03-21-12, 12:15 AM	#7
Aramike Ocean Warrior Best of SUBSIM Chairman Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 3,207 Downloads: 59 Uploads: 0	Here's a great, fairly recent, local story of a man who may have saved the lives of others put at risk by criminals who wouldn't give a damn if guns were illegal: http://www.wisn.com/news/30374159/detail.html

03-21-12, 08:07 AM	#10
yubba Admiral Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: in a neighborhood near you Posts: 2,478 Downloads: 293 Uploads: 2	I was listening to the Bill Mic live radio show here on the coast of florida it sounds like there is wittnesses seeing Zimmerman being beaten by the kid or fighting with, before the shot was fired. So I think we all better get our facts straight before we hang someone, so I guess the media will fan the flames of racism, some other media outlets will have the story about the witnesses seeing the fight. I haven't the time too look for this right now just reporting what I heard

03-20-12, 11:06 PM	#12
Aramike Ocean Warrior Best of SUBSIM Chairman Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 3,207 Downloads: 59 Uploads: 0	The topic slightly aside, I've never completely understood why gun crime has always inevitably led to a gun control discussion. If someone owns a gun legally or not, USING it illegally is still ILLEGAL. Ergo, what makes anyone think that those who would break laws regarding gun usage would simply follow laws regarding gun possession? People should have the right to choose to be able to defend themselves with a firearm. I believe that 100%. However, they should also be held accountable when they engage in violence against others that is not in defense. Whether or not they are allowed to LEGALLY possess the capability shouldn't be the issue, because hey - if they are willing to commit murder, why wouldn't they be willing to illegally own a gun? It's an age-old argument, but it's completely true - banning firearms only disarms law-abiding citizens. The individual in question may turn out to not be such a citizen.

03-20-12, 11:28 PM	#14
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	I though my point was more clear Steve.I am saying the requirements to be allowed to obtain a concealed carry permit should be much stricter.A person should no criminal record and they really should be evaluated for any possible physiological issues and there should be a much more extensive course training a person what they can and can not do legally as is most states it takes an afternoon. I am saying that this Zimmerman seems to be so aggressive in his actions that he could easily have gotten into a gun vs. gun situation with a person that was following the self defense laws to the T unlike Zimmerman.And for the record i do have a conceal carry and I do carry when I am working in certain areas of the state I work in refrigeration as well so it not outside the realm of possibility that someone could attempt to rob me to gain the several thousand dollars in tools,refrigeration tanks and large amounts of copper that my truck contains(I do not have the gun on me while on private property I lock it away in the truck inside a case.) nor is it impossible that some overzealous nut see me doing my job and think that I am about to commit a crime seeing as people in my industry work in places where most people ought not be.Of course I am half white and half Iranian Lor and thank god I appear white and not like a "rag head" becuase there are some nut jobs that probably would shoot me under certain circumstances if I did look more stereo typically "rag headish".