Unnarmed 17 year old shot dead "in self defence"

[August]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Funny you should say that because there have been numerous shooting sprees in the US of equally bad or worse proportions and it seems that the fact in the US in many states that someone else might have a concealed carry weapon seems to have little bearing on the attackers thought process.

Really? How do you calculate those who are dissuaded from committing a crime because their potential victim may be armed?

The super hard core everyone should carry a gun types try to say "oh if only more people could carry guns this kind of thing would not happen". More like it would have no effect if some nut is gong to run around shooting people as in France or in Arizona they are going to run around shooting people.

I'd say its really more like if victims are armed they're not as easily killed by some nut who is going to be able to get a gun regardless of whatever law you enact.

It is really disappointing when we are talking about a case that is clearly very questionable where someone went past the law regarding self defense and yet you still see people wanting to argue why people need more guns and less regulation and you have an example in your face of someone that should at least not have had a conceal carry permit in my opinion anything on your record involving trouble with law enforcement should keep you at least from gaining a carry permit.

I haven't seen anyone argue for more guns and less regulation here in this thread so I have to wonder who you are talking about.

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by August

Really? How do you calculate those who are dissuaded from committing a crime because their potential victim may be armed?

I'd say its really more like if victims are armed they're not as easily killed by some nut who is going to be able to get a gun regardless of whatever law you enact.

I haven't seen anyone argue for more guns and less regulation here in this thread so I have to wonder who you are talking about.

I just don't agree with the idea, it's a nice thought but, people who go on shooting sprees pretty much don't care and it's a moot point...you can't walk into a shopping mall and have made sure EVERYONE is unarmed. Premeditated murder as well is mostly the same idea, If someone wanted to kill me, they would do it when im not awake or otherwise armed...so either you have to post watch 24/7 or have a loaded gun under your pillow, or this whole self defense idea is pretty wishy washy. I remember a cop who was killed in my home town by his wife in his sleep. he's armed almost 24/7 and his wife still offed him...with his own gun. (actually my mom was on that jury for his trial)

and I keep waiting for that magical Mythical news story where the one superman packing heat saves the day. But I haven't seen one, not to say it's never happened, but as much as it touted that having a gun with you at all times will save you from everything up to and maybe including a nuclear apocalypse just seems not to be all that true or even common.

but i really think though this whole "stand your ground law" is complete folly it's pointless. it's like that old episode of south park where i think it was Stan's uncle are taking the boys hunting and they shoot all these endangered animals legally simply by yelling "oh my god it's coming right at us" before hand. It's just like that in Florida it seems, only with people.

[Aramike]

Here's a great, fairly recent, local story of a man who may have saved the lives of others put at risk by criminals who wouldn't give a damn if guns were illegal:

http://www.wisn.com/news/30374159/detail.html

[gimpy117]

well thats good.

but that's still

armed civilians: 1 Crazed gunmen: A bunch


oh by the way, happy birthday man or yesterday that is

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

well thats good.

but that's still

armed civilians: 1 Crazed gunmen: A bunch


oh by the way, happy birthday man or yesterday that is

Actually, a quick Google search will reveal many, many stories of armed civilians defending themselves and others.

But you're right, the crazed gunman is the most likely to win. That being said, if I'm ever in a situation where there's a crazed gunman after me, I'd rather be armed and have a chance than merely surrender my life to such a maniac.

Thanks for the birthday wishes nonetheless!

[Osmium Steele]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

but i really think though this whole "stand your ground law" is complete folly it's pointless. it's like that old episode of south park...

It is nothing like that at all.

In Fla law, previous to SYG if you were accosted, threatened, etc. and you "could" run away you were obliged to do so. You did not have the right to stand your ground.

Heaven help you if you actually struck first and disarmed, or otherwise incapacitated your assailant, because Florida law did not have your back. You just committed a felony and could be sued by your attacker for costs and damages. It happened numerous times.

Stand Your Ground changed that.

[yubba]

I was listening to the Bill Mic live radio show here on the coast of florida it sounds like there is wittnesses seeing Zimmerman being beaten by the kid or fighting with, before the shot was fired. So I think we all better get our facts straight before we hang someone, so I guess the media will fan the flames of racism, some other media outlets will have the story about the witnesses seeing the fight. I haven't the time too look for this right now just reporting what I heard

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by yubba

I was listening to the Bill Mic live radio show here on the coast of florida it sounds like there is wittnesses seeing Zimmerman being beaten by the kid or fighting with, before the shot was fired. So I think we all better get our facts straight before we hang someone, so I guess the media will fan the flames of racism, some other media outlets will have the story about the witnesses seeing the fight. I haven't the time too look for this right now just reporting what I heard

And here it comes. Latch on to any story, however implausible, that makes the good ol' God fearin' 'Merican out to be the hero for holding the savage hordes of 17 year olds armed with Skittles and Iced Tea at bay by shooting them dead for walking down the street.

Sometimes people make me sick.

Originally Posted by Aramike

The topic slightly aside, I've never completely understood why gun crime has always inevitably led to a gun control discussion. If someone owns a gun legally or not, USING it illegally is still ILLEGAL. Ergo, what makes anyone think that those who would break laws regarding gun usage would simply follow laws regarding gun possession?

People should have the right to choose to be able to defend themselves with a firearm. I believe that 100%. However, they should also be held accountable when they engage in violence against others that is not in defense. Whether or not they are allowed to LEGALLY possess the capability shouldn't be the issue, because hey - if they are willing to commit murder, why wouldn't they be willing to illegally own a gun?

It's an age-old argument, but it's completely true - banning firearms only disarms law-abiding citizens. The individual in question may turn out to not be such a citizen.

Good point. This idiot should never have been armed with a firearm if this is how he's going to use it. But I can't make that logical leap to banning all guns or enacting stricter gun control standards because one idiot used one wrong.

[andritsos]

did that zimmermann identify himself? or it isnt known?

[August]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

And here it comes. Latch on to any story, however implausible, that makes the good ol' God fearin' 'Merican out to be the hero for holding the savage hordes of 17 year olds armed with Skittles and Iced Tea at bay by shooting them dead for walking down the street.

Sometimes people make me sick.

But aren't you latching onto a story yourself?

I mean I share your doubts that it went down like this but what's so implausible about it? A 17 year old athlete is perfectly capable of beating up an out of shape 28 year old and it certainly wouldn't be the first time a teenager got confrontational with his elders.

I'd think it'd be wise not prejudge this incident either way until we get all the facts.

[Ducimus]

I don't think Gun control is the problem. No i think the problem is shady people manipulating Flordia's "stand your ground" laws. Frankly i didn't even know such a law was passed or even existed, and upon reading about it, it became immediatly obvious to me how some people will try to manipulate it. This "stand your ground" law, is completely different from the Castle Doctrine.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by August

But aren't you latching onto a story yourself?

The most plausible one backed by the most evidence, yes.

I mean I share your doubts that it went down like this but what's so implausible about it? A 17 year old athlete is perfectly capable of beating up an out of shape 28 year old and it certainly wouldn't be the first time a teenager got confrontational with his elders.

Well, the most recent thing is that his phone call to his girlfriend came out and he was saying the guy was following him. If that were the case, I'd probably get confrontational with the guy too.

I'd think it'd be wise not prejudge this incident either way until we get all the facts.

You're right, but I honestly can't see any way that any new fact would make this guy justified in shooting the kid given what we know.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Osmium Steele

It is nothing like that at all.

In Fla law, previous to SYG if you were accosted, threatened, etc. and you "could" run away you were obliged to do so. You did not have the right to stand your ground.

Heaven help you if you actually struck first and disarmed, or otherwise incapacitated your assailant, because Florida law did not have your back. You just committed a felony and could be sued by your attacker for costs and damages. It happened numerous times.

Stand Your Ground changed that.

Exactly what I have said in several posts, there were people prosecuted for just defending themselves! I grew up in Florida, I remember a few such cases in my hometown.