Rogue Soldier kills Afghan civilians

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Ordinarly, im not a big advocate of that, but In this incident, I believe that is probably the best course of action for the US and all Forces there. Anything less then turning him over to the Afghan legal system will appear that we are in collusion, or otherwise protecting this individual. Which makes EVERYBODY look bad. We need to distance ourselves from him.

My thought is give him a Court Martial that will strip him of all rank, proclaim as part of his punishment, that he is to be turned over the the Afghan legal system (Delivery to be done with him in a Prisoner jumpsuit and NOT in ANY uniform), and after his sentencing from the Afghan courts (most assuirdly death), he be given a Dishonorable discharge.

Then I'm pleased it wasn't a Brit soldier...better the death penalty (if that is the outcome and a legal judgement) be carried out in his country of origin.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

no particular reason...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...d-marry-rapist

http://www.bosnewslife.com/15541-det...-death-penalty


http://www.rai-see.org/news/world/21...n-charges.html

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...ike-again.html

Yeah... they've certainly a different slant on justice. What they follow is the oldest, most simplified damned interpretation of their holy book (at least that's my understanding), not so much what most civilized people would consider to be right or sensibly justifiable. Turns my stomach to read those, but it won't be you or me or any aspect of our culture that decides to change how they do things over there.

[eddie]

Imagine what this soldiers family must feel at this time, can't picture what they must feel at a time like this either.

[Penguin]

Handling him over is a terrible idea. It would only satisfy an urge for revenge and open the dams for more.
What if a US soldier gets caught stealing? Give him to the local "justice system" and let's chop his hand off?
A female soldier not dressed properly? Hand her over to the mob outside the base?
Apples and oranges? Hardly! Bilge gave some examples about the state of jurisdiction in Afghanistan - all leave no other conclusion that handling him over would result in cruel and unusual punishment. No matter how despicable his deeds are, he still is entitled to have a fair trial. If it results in death penalty, then be it, but a firing squad would still be more just than being ripped to shreds by an angry mob.

I can't believe people have problems with the international court in The Hague, where Bush refused to acknowledge any authority over US soldiers, while on the other hand they would hand this guy over to an Afghan court.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Handling him over is a terrible idea. It would only satisfy an urge for revenge and open the dams for more.
What if a US soldier gets caught stealing? Give him to the local "justice system" and let's chop his hand off?
A female soldier not dressed properly? Hand her over to the mob outside the base?
Apples and oranges? Hardly! Bilge gave some examples about the state of jurisdiction in Afghanistan - all leave no other conclusion that handling him over would result in cruel and unusual punishment. No matter how despicable his deeds are, he still is entitled to have a fair trial. If it results in death penalty, then be it, but a firing squad would still be more just than being ripped to shreds by an angry mob.

I can't believe people have problems with the international court in The Hague, where Bush refused to acknowledge any authority over US soldiers, while on the other hand they would hand this guy over to an Afghan court.

We're not talking about dress code violations or petty theft. We are talking about the murder of not one, but sixteen individuals. This would be a capital case in any country that has the death penalty as an option. It is indeed apples and oranges.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

We're not talking about dress code violations or petty theft. We are talking about the murder of not one, but sixteen individuals. This would be a capital case in any country that has the death penalty as an option. It is indeed apples and oranges.

We are talking about a country where barbaric (=cruel and unsusual) punishment is prevalent and where no independence of the justice system can be guaranteed.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

We're not talking about dress code violations or petty theft. We are talking about the murder of not one, but sixteen individuals. This would be a capital case in any country that has the death penalty as an option. It is indeed apples and oranges.

Yeah. If he'd done the same thing at a shopping center back here at home we'd be shocked and upset about it, too. There wouldn't be very many people wondering, "Gosh, I wonder what twisted him up so bad to make him go all mental on our collective asses... That poor fellow". We'd be just as wishful of his demise as anyone else, I suppose.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Penguin

We are talking about a country where barbaric (=cruel and unsusual) punishment is prevalent and where no independence of the justice system can be guaranteed.

And we are talking about an exceptional case. In terms of petty theft or dress code violations the argument can be easily be made that disciplinary procedures can be pursued internally. For the murder of sixteen people it becomes a difficult argument to make, regardless of the legal system.

[Rockstar]

Thank god for our justice system which, for now, prevents judgment by polling the mobs. Mobs whose only idea of war comes from video games, banners and slogans telling stories of noble warriors and flag waving scenes on TV.

This soldier faced the reality of war and did a piss poor job of toeing the line. But he should at least be brought home to be investigated. Who knows, if we turned him over to the mob we may have never known if anyone else was involved. Afganistan authorities could make up any damned thing they wanted to.


So cool the jets and let the system work.

And we are talking about an exceptional case. In terms of petty theft or dress code violations the argument can be easily be made that disciplinary procedures can be pursued internally. For the murder of sixteen people it becomes a difficult argument to make, regardless of the legal system.

That group of murderers from the same base who were killing for "sport" in Afghanistan were tried back in the states, were people clamouring to hand them over to the locals?

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

And we are talking about an exceptional case. In terms of petty theft or dress code violations the argument can be easily be made that disciplinary procedures can be pursued internally. For the murder of sixteen people it becomes a difficult argument to make, regardless of the legal system.

My "not dressed properly"-example wanted to point that over there women were killed for violating the Taliban's dress code. If you would give in to a demand for one crime, you would have double standards if you don't do it for other crimes.
So where do you draw the line? What abouit krashkart's example, someone offing 16 people in a mall in the US? Because of the severeness of the crime, we can skip procedure and hand his butt over to the families of the victims?
If Anders Breivik would have been an Afghan citizen, the state of Norway would not have handed him over to the authorities in Afghanistan, because of the very same principles I stated before.


On a side note, because it hasn't been mentioned yet: I am wondering if there are already talks about a compensation for the families.
When Germany blew up a fuel truck, which had been captured by the Taliban, there were also some civilian victims. The compensation to these families might indeed have prevented some bigger riots. It may look weird, as nothing can take the pain away about a death of a relative, but it is also a cultural thing and realpolitik.

[August]

Yeah I wonder if the irony of the Taliban accusing others of having innocent blood on their hands is lost on the average Afghani.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by August

Yeah I wonder if the irony of the Taliban accusing others of having innocent blood on their hands is lost on the average Afghani.

Exactly.

[Skybird]

Guys, why don't we all wait until some more info about the details of this case gets published? We do know almost nothing about the who and the why.

All we know is that he was stationed in Joint Base Lewis McCord that is beign mentioned by insiders as being one with a very bad record in the quality list of US forst and camps, and that they have had several problematic personalities there, and we know of eye-witness reports in Afghanistan claiming that drunken GIs leave their base occassionally to conduct almost man-hunts as their way to kill time. What is claim and what is truth we do not know.

And if the man-hunt-hobby claims are true, we do not know if this is the explanation for this case now, or whether it is somethign different.

One thing should not surprise an yone, though. "Krieg vertiert". Such thiungs happen, and will nhappen again. If oyu open the gates to hell and expose men to the wrath of all gods of war, you need to understand that this will chnage them. All of them. Soem can deal with it to a certain degree and copensate, others cannot. Some collapse, some just reveal in good or bad what always was hidden inside of them, some get overthrown by the demons of war, and turn into demons themselves.

That's war. It does ennoble nobody, never.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Penguin

My "not dressed properly"-example wanted to point that over there women were killed for violating the Taliban's dress code. If you would give in to a demand for one crime, you would have double standards if you don't do it for other crimes.
So where do you draw the line? What abouit krashkart's example, someone offing 16 people in a mall in the US? Because of the severeness of the crime, we can skip procedure and hand his butt over to the families of the victims?

Not at all. Because in a case where a crime was committed by an American on American soil against other Americans, the clear answer is to have the case tried in the American judicial system. See what I'm getting at?