Bush drone attacks targeted mourners and rescuers.

The implication is that anyone in favor of attacking targets regardless of civilian deaths in that part of the world is no different than palestinian scumbags

the implication is that anyone in favour of killing people simply because of where they live is exactly the same as the people cheering simply because some people in America got killed.

Collateral damage is unintentional. Motive matters.

wow?????? have you even followed to the story

Who started it matters, too.

Oh dear doesn't one of your republican presidential candidates point out a little too honestly who may have started it.

My point (which stands) is that in ww2,

Your point doesn't stand at all, WW2 might as well be on another planet, its like saying slavery is Ok because it was in some places in 1859

[AngusJS]

Up to 5,000 people attended Khwaz Wali Mehsud’s funeral that afternoon, including not only Taliban fighters but many civilians. US drones struck again, killing up to 83 people. As many as 45 were civilians, among them reportedly ten children and four tribal leaders.

Way to win hearts and minds.

Truly, a new low.

[AVGWarhawk]

its like saying slavery is Ok because it was in some places in 1859

Well it did according to the movie.

[MH]

The amount of damage caused to civilians is much lesser that in WW2 and its not even comparable.
Its seems though that every civilian that dies becomes a political issue for some scavengers.

I'm against killing of civilians at any coast but i hate the cynical use of it when it happens.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I can (to limit) accept civilian casualties caused by first strike. What I can not accept is striking against rescue workers. There is no way to ensure that everyone (if any) who comes to aid is terrorist.

[Catfish]

There are no civilians. Plant a weapon next to him and he's an insurgent.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f66_1223515331

But .. this happens in every war. It is just so that there are media which are able to inform people as it happens, unlike in former times where a few sparse military reports would sweep all under the carpet of a reason of state.
But certainly, from Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, pi**ing on Taliban corpses to drones killing civilians as "collateral damage", this is indeed not the way "to win hearts", or build up a country. But maybe the latter is not the point.

To compare the death of a US citizen to an Afghani or Iraqi and then saying "those scumbags do not count" is not only inhuman, racist and xenophobic, but plain dumb.

Kraznyi & Catfish.You are almost there.
Take a step back to get a view.
Fenian bastards were often attempting the "double tap" attacks(the OP link provides sources where the FBI goes on about Hamas and al-qaida doing the same crap). It is unfortunately a tried and tested scumbag terrorist action in the modern world
To take GRs "point" of "kill 'em all" it would be exactly the same "logic" as if Britain was blowing up some random pub in Boston or New York in response to a shopping centre being blown up in Cheshire(and then blowing up any decent bystanders for good measure)
To me it is a simple point that it doesn't matter if the initial action is from china somalia america finland ireland or any other place, it is still wrong and inexcusable to anyone with a working brain.
Likewise the noted response, no matter who does it or where it comes from is equally wrong and inexcusable....unless you have brain freeze and cannot think beyond whichever flag you cling to.

[AVGWarhawk]

it is still wrong and inexcusable

I would agree.

no matter who does it or where it comes from is equally wrong and inexcusable

I would agree.


But stuff happens....

[krashkart]

If it deters the towelheads from blowing up my countrymen and our allies abroad, by all means let the drone program continue for as long as the killing needs to be done. No service has been done to mankind through suicide bombings -- are indiscriminate drone strikes any worse?

I am sure this is as legal as it gets.

Once the right voices are heard by the UN that might change. (I should hope for some future ROE regulation) In the meantime... we stick with what we have to work with. Sucky as the situation is, this is just how things are right now. $#&! 'em!


EDIT: The only reason Americans fear drones is because we fear that they might someday be used against us.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Catfish

There are no civilians. Plant a weapon next to him and he's an insurgent.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f66_1223515331

I'm not trying to justify anything but your problem is that you try to relativize everything by videos like this.
I believe its not a policy or standard conduct of military.
The purpose,methods or effectiveness of war in Afghanistan can be debated ,the problem is that incidents like this are prone to happen regardless of the fact weather you believe this war is just or not.
As long as this war need is fought people will get killed.

Originally Posted by Catfish

To compare the death of a US citizen to an Afghani or Iraqi and then saying "those scumbags do not count" is not only inhuman, racist and xenophobic, but plain dumb.

You know...i live in a place surrounded by those "scumbags" and when i look at ME as much as i try to exercise my brain i come to conclusion that we are better.
The sad thing is that their own "freedom fighters" or leaders consider their own(civilian) blood to be very cheap when it serves the cause of being free to be oppressed by their own people and live in dark ages theocracies.
I have no problem with that....maybe i'm selfish or maybe just so much liberal...as long as they don't try to export those views in my direction its all ok with me.
I know I'm generalising here but going into details does not change the overall picture that ME Afghanistan or Iran are...what their are.

The issue is not civilian casualties or harts and minds.
It is weather USA wants to deal or can deal with this bunch of fanatic crackheads who can slaughter their own Muslim fellows to pass the massage about how decent human should live his life... without mach of debate.

Oh yeah they are debating now over Syria for a year-a great friend of freedom fighters, defendant of Muslim human rights and great partner for peace.
It takes so long probably because USA or Israel has nothing to do with the massacre

At least they do debate this time, unlike what happened under previous Syrian anti-imperialist dear leader.

Catfish don't feel so bad about yourself.
You are lucky to be where you are and you are much better and better off.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by MH

As long as this war need is fought people will get killed.

Such is the purpose of war no matter what side you're on.

You know...i live in a place surrounded by those "scumbags" and when i look at ME as much as i try to exercise my brain i come to conclusion that we are better.
The sad thing is that their own "freedom fighters" or leaders consider their own(civilian) blood to be very cheap when it serves the cause of being free to be oppressed by their own people and live in dark ages theocracies.

They control their people through fear of death. I wouldn't have a problem with that so much if they didn't try to unleash that ideology on the rest of us.

I know I'm generalising here but going into details does not change the overall picture that ME Afghanistan or Iran are...what their are.

A pack of rabid psychotic primates. I don't like thinking that way, but that's how it is these days. If they want to generalize and say that all Americans should die, I take that to mean that they want my family dead. Such was proven to me eleven years ago in NYC. My family has wished no ill upon the region or their system of beliefs. So why should my grandmother or my youngest cousin, be slaughtered? Ideology is the master of the victimized. A quick acid facial doesn't hurt either, from what I've heard.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by MH

Catfish don't feel so bad about yourself.
You are lucky to be where you are and you are much better and better off.

lol apart from the second-last sentence, a good post i can understand. Yes, certainly we are better off or so i think. But apart from those Taliban there are muslims who would never kill anyone, and are pretty angry about their own fanatics. But they are also killed.

I just do not like those euphemistically-called asymmetric wars.
More than 8,000 civilians were killed in the last 4 years, in Afghanistan.
And more than 240,000, in Iraq.
http://www.prosebeforehos.com/govern...stan-compared/
This does not mean that - especially in Iraq - all civilians were killed by troops from abroad - but was that worth it ? For oil ? As a retaliation ?

Imperiums are not founded with timidity, or so someone once said.
I just thought we would be more advanced, when we are already so much better off, comfort-wise and intellectually.

Thanks,
Catfish

[MH]

Originally Posted by Catfish

lol apart from the second-last sentence, a good post i can understand. Yes, certainly we are better off or so i think. But apart from those Taliban there are muslims who would never kill anyone, and are pretty angry about their own fanatics. But they are also killed.

I really don't know which Taliban you are talking about.
Overall picture is that they use fear ruthlessly for greater cause when they have to.

Originally Posted by Catfish

This does not mean that - especially in Iraq - all civilians were killed by troops from abroad - but was that worth it ? For oil ? As a retaliation ?

Imperiums are not founded with timidity, or so someone once said.
I just thought we would be more advanced, when we are already so much better off, comfort-wise and intellectually.

Thanks,
Catfish

So you better check the data...majority of the slaughter is due to civil war suicide bombers trucks and so on.
A struggle for tribal dominance and of course making Iraqis miss old good uncle Saddam(they had at least some order in their life then).
Blaming USA for all the chaos was the game...and spoiling any attempt to restore civil life...and poor Iraqi citizen by power of reality had no choice but to admit that life was much better without USA.
The kids that grew up in this chaos made excellent cannon fodder as extremists and so on wheels keep turning.
Yes they outsmarted USA in their ruthless and determination.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by Catfish

I just do not like those euphemistically-called asymmetric wars.

Asymmetric war means a war fought in a manner unconventional to the Cold War standard, which back in the day meant men and machinery against men and machinery. These days war is being fought under different conventions.

244,000 civilian deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan over a ten-year period; compared to over two million civilian deaths in Korea on both sides of the 38th Parallel between the years 1950 and 1953. Do the math.

I agree that the human race should be further along than this. But again, this is just how we are. Animals.

[AVGWarhawk]

I agree that the human race should be further along than this. But again, this is just how we are. Animals.

We have been people at war for a very long time. It is almost if not actual the only way we know how to live. Sad really.