Best Long range speed?

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I went in and readjusted mine to match the original values. My thinking is that, at least for fleet boats, that "Ahead Standard" was the speed meant for cruising with the fleet, and the surface fleet standard cruise speed was 15 knots. I may be wrong of course, but I haven't seen any real numbers from people who served on diesel boats as to what speeds actually matched what settings.

Just my thinking, of course.

Well, I had a different rational behind the adjustment. I didn't have all boats cruising at 15 knots, only at what i could conjecture was "3 engine speed". Some patrol logs i have read indicate they cruised two and from their patrol areas at "3 engine speed". So what exactly is "3 engine speed"?


It was awhile ago, but what i think i did was rationalize that 1/3rd was probably 1 engine. 2/3rds two engines, standard 3 engines, ahead full being 4 engines.

At that point I think did a little math by taking the top speed of whatever boat i was looking at, and mulplied it by 0.75 (or 75% which i figured, was about 3 engines). I took that number and entered it into the range figures in the sim file. So instead of say, 11,000 @ 10 knots, i put 11,000 at 13.5 knots.

Of course that "11,000" figure is also subject to conjecture and debate because
a.) fuel ballasts (no hard numbers on that i could find as to capacity and range on this)
b.) The game world is anywhere between 20 %to 30% larger then it is in real life

So while i don't remember the exact figure for fuel i used, i know i took those two things into consideration.

So add that larger fuel allowance, to say @13.5 knots, and that's pretty much what i did. The intent was to have fuel efficiency at speeds greater then the typical 10 knots that everyone uses. I think that figure is often used because that's that everybody uses on uboats. For fleet boats, i dont think the 10 knot figure is correct.

Of course, you take my design there, and throttle it back to 2/3rs for long range cruising going too and from patrol area, and well, you get alot more then you should.

[Sailor Steve]

Good points, and I don't know the answers. I wish I did, and in this case the old saying "your guess is as good as mine" definitely applies. Your guess is probably better, as I don't remember when or why I came to the conclusion I did, and I probably trusted someone else's judgement. Life was so much easier with SH1 - teleport to your patrol zone with appropriate loss of fuel, teleport home when done. Unless you misjudged, in which case you just got a message: "Not enough fuel for return voyage".

[Shado]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

And herein lays a problem with SH3, 4 and 5. Fuel usage doesn't scale so well. TMO was designed so you could go to your patrol areas at speeds the subs most accurately traveled in real life. In TMO ahead standard is the fastest economical speed for the fuel used. Yes you can putt putt around at 2/3rds, but you'd be taking advantage of a flaw in the game, and having two to three times the range you should have.

Personally, im starting to wish i didn't adjust speeds to be realistic at ahead standard. Regardless of what I had intended, everyones going to go around at 2/3rds and exploit the flaw in design. So, what the hell, "all ahead harbor speed at 2/3rds for teh win!"

I enjoy your hard work on TMO. One of the many reasons I use TMO is because of the speed setting and milage. I enjoy traveling the vast ocean at standard, and if needed slowing to 2/3. Just want to thank you again for all your hard work. I really enjoy it. Makes the game a challange and fun to play

[mido]

I found this: http://americanhistory.si.edu/subs/h...beforenuc/ww2/

It says the typical cruising speed for a "Balao" was around 10 kts.

[Arlo]

Originally Posted by Shado

I enjoy your hard work on TMO. One of the many reasons I use TMO is because of the speed setting and milage. I enjoy traveling the vast ocean at standard, and if needed slowing to 2/3. Just want to thank you again for all your hard work. I really enjoy it. Makes the game a challange and fun to play

I enjoy the fuel consumption at a more reasonable rate, as well. The other reason TMO is my flavor of choice is - I don't experience CTDs. RFB looks like a really interesting option but the ship ID book will cause a CTD if I try to look up the wrong ship (and so has attempts at periscope views .... probably from the same ship models). And ... it has that 'lucky if you make it to your first patrol area' fuel consumption. I wonder if the museum CTD is related to those.

But TMO has been CTD free. The Japanese destroyers are really a pain, though. They're psychic.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by mido

I found this: http://americanhistory.si.edu/subs/h...beforenuc/ww2/

It says the typical cruising speed for a "Balao" was around 10 kts.

The problem with internet sources is they all copy from somewhere else. I've read most information you can find on the net. After you've read enough of it, you realize they all repeat themselves. The same can be said of Uboat sources as well.

Where the real dirt is, is in the patrol logs.

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/subreports.htm

Trouble with that is, what your looking for is not always easy to find, or worded in terms that implies something, but lacks some specifics for the purposes of technical data gathering.

[mido]

Oh man, you were really "diving deep" into this to get all the information for your great mod.
I read several patrol logs which I found under that link you gave and it says in different occasions that speed was reduced to 8 to 10 knots in order to preserve fuel.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by mido

Oh man, you were really "diving deep" into this to get all the information for your great mod.
I read several patrol logs which I found under that link you gave and it says in different occasions that speed was reduced to 8 to 10 knots in order to preserve fuel.

Im sure it does. But in what context? Transiting to and from their assigned patrol area? Or just while in the patrol area? There's also others that cite different speeds. One critical thing to keep in mind is that US subs had to be at their assigned patrol area by a certain time period, and were due back from patrol by a certain time period. This would influence at what rate they would travel to and from patrol. At least, so my reading would indicate, but I could be mistaken.

In addition to patrol logs there's also first hand accounts and non fiction books. Honestly between all the sources, i couldn't quite pin it down to a brass tack. Another "what the hell was it?" question aside from best cruising speed is at what depth they could go before being crushed. From what i info i could find, it was greater then even the most ardent enthusiast would think.

[mido]

It is totally correct what you say about being on time in a patrol area or especially to attack a convoy, they just wouldn't wait. All I say is that I read that IN ORDER TO PRESERVE FUEL speed was adjusted to 8-10 knots. So I assume that was only done when time and schedule would allow it but it still indicates a certain speed for most economical cruise.

[Ducimus]

Well, of course reducing speed will conserve fuel. That's a no brainer. For the purposes of SH4, what i was striving for was the fastest and most fuel efficient cruising speed for traversing long distances from point A to point B.

When I made the adjustment, i probably gave the player too much fuel, because i was accounting for fuel ballasts, and the flat map. When i released these changes I thought I had clearly said what the intention was, and figured i'd leave the "use as intended" or "Cheat your heart out" up to the players discretion. I reasoned that It wasn't my job to keep people from cheating.

Looking back on it now, that line of thought was entirely contractory to my previous position of "preventing the player from gaming the game". At this point, I find myself weary of being questioned about it. If I ever update TMO again, I think I will put it back to 10 knots seeings how:

a.) People like long cruises at 9-10 knots and are unable to grasp the idea that a 9-10 knot cruising speed isn't neccessarily true.
b.) People will always cheat when given the opportunity.
c.) My adjustment, though well intentioned and researched, just isn't going to work given the both A and B.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

When I made the adjustment, i probably gave the player too much fuel, because i was accounting for fuel ballasts, and the flat map.

All laudable goals, which I fully support.

a.) People like long cruises at 9-10 knots and are unable to grasp the idea that a 9-10 knot cruising speed isn't neccessarily true.
b.) People will always cheat when given the opportunity.
c.) My adjustment, though well intentioned and researched, just isn't going to work given the both A and B.

As I said, I adjusted my own back to the original values. My personal choice, and I don't consider it cheating because I'm now forced to use what I thought were the proper cruising speeds.

You did the right thing for the right reasons. I just disagreed, and I admit I could well be wrong. Don't give up the fight.

[sparrs]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

Not everyone, in a TMO Fleet Boat I transit at Standard but once in the patrol area, cruise at 2/3. The theory is quickest practical time to get on station and then maximum time there since I'm not trying to get anywhere in particular.

Actually I think you nailed it.

I do this too. I was thinking of time factors on the ingress to patrol area; Get there in reasonable time, then use 2/3 for the sweep or until you pick up a contact. Saves fuel, can spend longer in the various areas you need to patrol etc. In my head as I role play, it seems sensible to do.

What I was always unsure of when I first started playing SH4 was how long to patrol - how many weeks at sea is reasonable, as you have the ability to refit and not end your patrol, so in theory you could just continue to stay on the ocean indefinitely (damage not taken into account and I have not tried it), but the fleet boat histories I found over at U-Boat.net are usually just under two months or there abouts at sea, and very interesting too.
An example is this one:- http://uboat.net/allies/commanders/3165.html

I am no expert - I like the challenge the game offers as well as help my maths skills (...) and TMO and RSRD are the best mods I have used for SH4. So thanks for your hard work...

[Ducimus]

In regards to fuel and "allotted time", oh, believe me, I have thought of changing mission objectives to be something along the lines of:

"Reach designated area No later Then Day/Month/Year" or the mission is failed.

It would be realistic, and it would force the fuel usage as I had intended, but seriously, scripting that, and then testing it? It would be a scripting nightmare worse then the sea trials. I'd sooner play Russian roulette with a 45 auto.

[TorpX]

Personally, I've always thought the fuel/range allotments in SH4 were too generous (even with the map distortion issues), mainly, because there is little hinderence due to the weather. Storms and heavy seas created problems in RL, but do not do so in game.

Of course, I have formed this opinion playing RFB. Is there much of a difference between TMO and RFB?

[mobucks]

In heavy chop your range will decrease. If I pour on the coal in nice weather I make 20-21 kts in TMO. Same setting in the worst seas the game has gives an average of 17kts. (17-18-17-16 on and so forth) AFAIK, the engines are still burning the same amount of fuel/hour.