Sneakiness... SH3stock vs NYGM vs LSH vs ???

[89]

Originally Posted by Fish In The Water

Gotta say I agree with Steve regarding the 'toughness' of the question. I've mostly played GWX, although I am currently testing the new asdic mod in NYGM. What I like about it, is it promises to offer more of what you're asking about (i.e. enhanced 'sneakiness' in keeping with actual environmental conditions).

As I'm still early in the testing phase I can't really speak yet as to what degree it reaches that goal. But I do consider it a worthwhile effort, especially in contrast with GWX, (which while being quite good), in my opinion goes too far in neutralizing ambient ocean noise to the detriment of the player and in favor of an uber-AI.

Its not meant to be a tough question, no one's neck is on the line But it would be a helpful resource to refer to when trying to choose the right flavour of mod out of all available. it is meant to be subjective, but rating each parameter of stealth with a number( relative to "5" of stock SH3) would also give us more structured discussion/opinion gathering.

Nobody is going to compare MrX's rating of 7 with MrY rating of 9. The numbers are there to allow Misters XYZ to quickly express their opinion on several parameters of stealth gameplay of one or more mods.

What year was your GWX test?

Any time after 1941 and it is very likely that the destroyer is radar equipped so spotting at 20 km (some 10.8 nm) is entirely reasonable.

Also the approach variables are almost infinite while there is an overwhelming tendancy amongst some players to blame the program for their own badly executed appoaches.

I would suggest that, if your H-D is big enough, create multiple installations configured as you like for comparison. You obviously have issues with the GWX Team's interpretation of the data, so try NYGM, LSH or WAC and determine which fits your preconcieved ideas best.

In my opinion, stock SH3 bears little resemblance to a simulation of the U-Boat war with regards to most of your perimeters but you are obviously free to differ.

I spend most of my SH3 time stalking the shallows off the British Isles in 1944-45 where GWX consistantly recreates situations that mirror the realities of the late innings in the U-Boat war so I am forced to disagree with your initial premise and your interpretation of the data. None of the variables that you are seeking to quantify are constants, either in stock or across the mega-mods. They certainly were not in real life as all depend on specific situations that may be relevant on one occasion but not another.

The modding forums contain a wealth of information dealing with the various modding team's rationale behind their work and are worth taking the time to peruse in detail.

[Jimbuna]

A fair post asking a fair question but boy what an excellent response Randomizer

@89

The only solution for you IMHO would be to install them all and make a decision based on your requirements, experiences and preferences.

SINK EM ALL!!

[89]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

What year was your GWX test?

I think it was 1939-40.

Also the approach variables are almost infinite while there is an overwhelming tendancy amongst some players to blame the program for their own badly executed appoaches.

- The approach variables to many things in life are infinite which does not stop people expressing their opinions, compare them and consider that activity to be interesting and worthwhile.
Besides, I did state that approach would be 90 degrees at 3 knots to lessen the infinty to at least a smaller one

But the main point is just to get a feel for peoples opinions on different mods and other SH games on this particular part of gameplay. Not to dispute the undeniable merit of GW (LSH, NY etc) team work. But simply get subjective opinions just on that part of gameplay.
If you or anybody feel that my "key criteria" are too stifling, feel free to add - as long as this stays on topic of realization of "stealth" in sub sims.
I believe that this is useful because -

I would suggest that, if your H-D is big enough, create multiple installations configured as you like for comparison.

I do not think that my opinions on this matter would satisfy me. I'm not an expert and value others' input. Secondly, it is quicker for me (and for other people in the future who would be using these grounds to evaluate the right mod/SH for them) to read this kind of thread than download GBs of patches and readmes on how to install them.

You obviously have issues with the GWX Team's interpretation of the data

Yes, I had limited experience of GWX that was supported by my reading of other people whose opinions I thought to be qualified - former Navy guy talk on detection at range, and just SH veterans. Generally I do like sims, but I hate "tough" AI that relies on cheating laws of physics to acheive toughness. Just my perference for computer sims- air combat, soccer, driving, now uboats (This is my subjective opinion, already expressed in the scale in my original post)

In my opinion, stock SH3 bears little resemblance to a simulation of the U-Boat war with regards to most of your perimeters .

IThe topic is about how easy it is to be detected - I've put SH3 right bang in the middle of the arbitrary 10 point scale. It never implied that SH3 was the etalon, just an arbitrary point of easiness of being detected.

I guess the scale simply goes like: Blind-----SH3stock------Gods vision, and the question is does the mod place on the left of SH3Stock or an the right and how far to the left/right. If you have experience of several SHs/mods - place THEM on that same scale in the *right* order. All purely subjective for each respondent

None of the variables that you are seeking to quantify are constants, either in stock or across the mega-mods. They certainly were not in real life as all depend on specific situations that may be relevant on one occasion but not another.

This is not engineering, this is a topic that would help people choose the mod/game that would suit their taste. Based on other (maybe more experienced) people's tastes. Tastes do not have constants. So just put an arbitary value which YOU feel corresponds best

The modding forums contain a wealth of information dealing with the various modding team's rationale behind their work and are worth taking the time to peruse in detail.

-
I am sure the answers are already there, but structured focus meta studies are useful thing. It is not practical to read several 50 page threads. Overview will help to understand where things are at an approximate level.

Originally Posted by jimbuna

The only solution for you IMHO would be to install them all and make a decision based on your requirements, experiences and preferences.

Not just for me, but for everybody with such question? Common, just answer the question instead - surely you had experience with at least several SH3 mods as well as SH4/5. You know what I'm trying to get at, if you feel that the question or the arbitrary scale needs altering - feel free, but no need to make its complicated when its quite simple poll

As stated, I believe your initial premise is invalid and the data you seek so subjective as to be useless but if you can get a consensus for your arbitrary "sneakyness" scores, more power too you.

An example of how the inherent variables make scoring useless is in one of my active careers I have had U-19 shadowing a Soviet convoy in the Black Sea in broad daylight and was never detected by the escorting destroyer. Since it's within visual range and I do not use the 16km atmosphere mod, I remained unseen as I attempted to get into an attack position. Eventually worsening weather and the onset of night ended the pursuit but for several hours I operated within visual range of merchants and a destroyer without being sighted. So, in my experiance, your blanket statement:

My general comment for GWX would be that daylight stealth factor is too low (Ds spot you at over 20 km)...

is manifestly inaccurate.

Also having your boat operating at 3 knots and 90 degrees to a target cannot be considered an approach unless the target is for all intents and purposes stopped.

It is well known that use of TC in the SH3-4 series greatly increases your vulnerability to detection so unless testing is conducted in real time any scores will likely be skewed accordingly.

Anyway, good luck getting the scores you want.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by 89

Not just for me, but for everybody with such question? Common, just answer the question instead - surely you had experience with at least several SH3 mods as well as SH4/5. You know what I'm trying to get at, if you feel that the question or the arbitrary scale needs altering - feel free, but no need to make its complicated when its quite simple poll

We'll settle for what we gave the community for free thanks

Originally Posted by jimbuna

We'll settle for what we gave the community for free thanks

What he stated and I'll add this.....
With all the Tools out there that allow even the newest of the new to set things as they wish?
Why even bother to ask others to hand you what you want?


At this point in time YOU have the ability to control your Game as You see fit.
If you don't like something? CHANGE IT in your Game.
Many do not like to compare the Mods any longer.
The Mods War was ended long ago and should not be Zombied with questions such as this.

Besides, I HATE questions that involve Math and thinking in buffer terms.

[89]

Ok so a discussion of the way stealth is implemented in various versions of Silent Hunter is based on false premises, is inaccurate, pointless and fruitless

I stated at least twice that it is the general area of the question that interests me, if the way question was setup felt wrong to anybody he was free to revise it... but no go haha

I also said that I am a newbie in subsims and do not trust my own judgement yet, so I was looking for opinions of the more experienced. I start to get the idea of what I should expect and what I should not in terms of uboat stealth, but wanted a discussion on what is the "Ideal", what part of it is realised in what version of Silent Hunter and how it is realised (remember I did not ask purely about SH3 mods, but other SHs too -SH4, maybe 5).

We'll settle for what we gave the community for free thanks

-What's this got to do with the topic? It's like several of you got sore or something. Don't be sore

This is a kind of answer I was hoping for: "

Hmm, no, if you want challenge, go for GWX! LSH3 is better for early war, in my opinion. Realistically, you could sail into the middle of a convoy on a dark night in '40 or '41 and sink all the ships you wanted, on the surface. And then make a quick getaway, also on the surface.

That tactic is suicide in GWX, but possible in LSH3.
I have not yet played late war with it (got SH4 recently, playing the U-boats there), but I have a feeling that punishing GWX AI is matching the reality quite close...

...That being said, after reading the Iron Coffins, U-Boat War Patrol, and Ace of Aces, which go into detail of early war, and Steel Boat, Iron Hearts, which deals with punishing planes and escorts in later war, '44 particularly.

" ( http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...3/m/2641047909 ) - a nicely balanced quick argument.

But here people (not all- maybe there is a small pressure group) get very touchy about discussion (seen by them as criticism) of their work (which is supurb and is very appreciated) and this leads to too much "patting each other on the back" all the time as nobody wants to upset the pressure group. And that should not be the case, imho- I love russian(?) proverb : "Truth is born in an argument". A very-very deep meaning it has.

At this point in time YOU have the ability to control your Game as You see fit.
If you don't like something? CHANGE IT in your Game.

When I asked about if it was possible to import stock SH3 gameplay settings into GWX in another thread, I rather quickly got stuck and was told by Jimbuna

You have a mammoth task ahead of you

- naturally I gave up How does one change GAMEPLAY, with what tools?

Peace