Angle Of Bow.......Quick Question

[Snowman999]

To clarify, I'm not talking about taking three bearings, the way to angle tool works on the map requires three clicks in quick succession. Like I stated the first click out in front of the target along it's projected course, another click at the target bow and the last click on your sub will draw an angle on the map which represents the AOB (at least roughly). In my limited experience a decent way of getting an AOB value in a relative hurry at a single point in time when you have a pretty good idea of the target's course (map updates on, or through visual contact, or sonar contacts over time).

What I don't get, and maybe I need the game to understand, is why, if you already have a course auto-plotted, you're even worrying about determining AOB. If you have the course AOB is already determined. Doesn't the game send the AOB to the TDC while it's giving you the course for free?

[Tieg]

There is a way to do it 100% manually which some purist like to do to immerse themselves into the game....

Personally...I did it so much on the Hampton and on the Parche that I would rather spend my time sinking ships and utilizing some other dude to figure out the solutions. I did it enough myself for some guy

[Snowman999]

Originally Posted by Tieg

There is a way to do it 100% manually which some purist like to do to immerse themselves into the game....

Personally...I did it so much on the Hampton and on the Parche that I would rather spend my time sinking ships and utilizing some other dude to figure out the solutions. I did it enough myself for some guy

VBG. I feel the same way. I don't understand the mania for fire-control in sub sims at the expense of so much else that's fun about driving boats and playing CO. Attack after attack. But no movie night, half-way night, or harassing dinks.

I was so dangerous they made me Time-Range plotter. Gave me lots of time to look over the Geo plot's shoulder and offer "helpful" comments. Once, in the trainer, I noticed that the Eng's PK range solution was great, except for the huge island sonar would have to be getting bearings through. When the chart was applied to the geo plot the range walked in to "Oh, Crap" levels and we snap-shot at a Charlie II that had already fired at us five minutes before. I hope Mama got a nice telegram.

[Tieg]

I will admit...the majority of my time was CEP....what a drag that thing was except at battle stations..

[valpospe]

What I don't get, and maybe I need the game to understand, is why, if you already have a course auto-plotted, you're even worrying about determining AOB. If you have the course AOB is already determined. Doesn't the game send the AOB to the TDC while it's giving you the course for free?

The Course isn't "auto-plotted" I plot it after making observations of the target over a period of time. While it may be true that in real life someone charting the course of a target might have already had to figure out what the AoB is. For the purposes of this game, at least how I've gone at it, just because I have manually put down a best guess plot of what I think the target's course is doesn't mean that I "know" the AoB (once you have the course the AoB becomes a known value, but you still need to get the actual number to input to the TDC) and more importatnly the TDC doesn't know it. Just because it's known doesn't mean you know it (didn't Yogi Berra say that )

In other words, while in real life AoB may be used to figure out course, I've found that by marking a target's position over time I can estimate course and then get a reasonable value for AoB for the purposes of a firing solution. So no, the game does not send the AoB to the TDC automatically (in manual targeting mode) and it doesn't really give you a course for free (although with map updates on it more or less does).

[Snowman999]

The Course isn't "auto-plotted" I plot it after making observations of the target over a period of time. While it may be true that in real life someone charting the course of a target might have already had to figure out what the AoB is. For the purposes of this game, at least how I've gone at it, just because I have manually put down a best guess plot of what I think the target's course is doesn't mean that I know the AoB and more importatnly the TDC doesn't know it.

OK. Sounds like you're doing a crude maneuvering board solution without the benefit of a polar display. That will work, IF you have enough time to take multiple observations with enough time between to generate bearing rate. In real life this usually wasn't feasible due to zigging and the need to run like hell for the firing point as soon as a crude solutoin (from AOB) was available.

[_Seth_]

If anyone is still wondering; Here is a crude drawing that explains how to find the AOB:

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Snowman999

What I don't get, and maybe I need the game to understand, is why, if you already have a course auto-plotted, you're even worrying about determining AOB. If you have the course AOB is already determined. Doesn't the game send the AOB to the TDC while it's giving you the course for free?

@seth: it won't make much difference in your accuracy, but the angle's vertex should be in the middle of the target and the angle extend to the middle of your sub to be technically correct. It's easy to demonstrate that doesn't make any difference in shooting accuracy though, so I'll only fight you if the I have an unfair advantage.

Here I am replying before I have read the entire thread. Generally I am getting fixes on the target with radar, connecting two fixes six minutes apart to estimate average course and speed. I use the average course to set my AoB and my solution will remain correct so long as I have taken a true average zig pattern. Plotting the course line and points that predict where he will be at six minute intervals along the average course let me determine changes in course or speed that I need to compensate for. By the time he comes into sight I have a good idea what he is going to do and how I will react to it. I try to wait at a right angle course to the track about 700 yards off the track, at periscope depth and ½ kt running silent.

Lately I have been coupling the above with what we are calling the Dick O'Kane attack method. Although O'Kane was a TDC/PK wizard, he preferred not to use the contraption for its intended purpose! What's the saying that no device is so perfectly designed that it cannot be perverted into doing something useful?

I'm curious. Could you two real sub guys check out http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...6&postcount=67 and let me know if you ever did anything similar? Also, this will give you some feel for how the game mechanics work. You might be interested in MoBo, the Electronic Maneuvering Board and Dead Reckoning Tracker at http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...79&postcount=1

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by Snowman999

AOB is taught in USN Sub School using vectors.

You mean something like this?

This was a fairly simple example I drew up previously to show folks how to easily calculate AoB with the formula if you put your sub on a 90° beam of the target's expected course.

And from the other side...

[mookiemookie]

Another way to simply think about it is to imagine you're holding two flashlights on the bridge of the target ship. Straight ahead is 0, directly behind you is 180. Aim one directly ahead of you, and the other at the submarine. Whatever the angle between the two flashlight beams, that's your AOB. In other words, if the sub is directly aside you on the starboard side, it'd be a 90 degree starboard AOB. If it's directly aside you on the port side, it's a 90 degree port AOB.

[denny927]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

No, your bow heading doesn't matter. As LST said, all angle on bow means is where you are in relation to his bow. Think of it this way, if the other ship's watch crew spotted your submarine, they would call out "Submarine spotted, bearing ___" That number would be the AOB.

great, very very good example

[denny927]

and when my submarine is in standby in periscopedepth, targeting a destroyer with the stern?is the same thing i suppose?

[denny927]

Originally Posted by valpospe

In real life, perhaps, and for the manual purist who wants to do it like they did it. I'm not pretending to be an expert as I indicated in my first post, but I have found that I can get a pretty good solution using the method I described.

To clarify, I'm not talking about taking three bearings, the way to angle tool works on the map requires three clicks in quick succession. Like I stated the first click out in front of the target along it's projected course, another click at the target bow and the last click on your sub will draw an angle on the map which represents the AOB (at least roughly). In my limited experience a decent way of getting an AOB value in a relative hurry at a single point in time when you have a pretty good idea of the target's course (map updates on, or through visual contact, or sonar contacts over time).

For example, make visual contact with target, mark location on map. Make another mark in 3 minutes. You can use this to get a rough idea of speed and if you a draw a line through those two marks you get a pretty good estimate of course. You can then use the angle tool to grab a AOB measurement. Go to Scope and take bearing and distance and enter speed and AOB and you should have a decent solution that usually requires a tweak here or there. I'm not claiming that this is the offical way to do it, but the original poster asked for ways to calculate AOB and I offered one way that works for me in the game.

-happy hunting

true, in fact i used the same method too, only one thing, when i estimate the aob, i waste precious seconds putting values on tdc, the target is constantly moving, specially if the target is a destroyer patrolling a certain zone, like tokio(sound a little dangerous, but i want see what is there), at 18,20 knots....any tricks?and sorry for the previous post about the "very very very good example", was not quite good:P

[magic452]

The heading of your boat has nothing to do with the AoB so the AoB is the same if you're using bow or stern tubes.

If the time it takes to enter AoB is causing you problems than you don't have a very good set up and if you're attacking a DD in shallow water than you better have a very good set up or I predict a very short career for you.

With map contacts on the very best way to get AoB is to use the three minute rule and the target course and speed. I do it three times if I have the time, this gives you very good course and speed. Draw a line through all the Xs and than take the ruler tool with tool helper on. This gives you a compass rose. Put the rose on the target course ahead of the target and read the number closest to the target, this is the target's true course. Remember this number, it will give you AoB later.

Go the the periscope and start inputting you data. Turn on the Position Keeper. First input Speed, from the three minute rule, Second the AoB.

"Wait a minute I don't have an AoB" you say . "Yes you do" I say. You have the target course. Go to the AoB input dial and turn it Port or Starboard depending on which side of the target you'll be shooting at, and turn it a few degrees, just take a guess. You will see the target ship symbol on the top left dial of the TDC turn when you send AoB to the TDC. The bow of the symbol will point to a number on the outer ring of the dial, this number is the heading of the target. A target moving from left to right straight across the screen will be heading 90° or due west. Turn the Aob dial till the bow points to the number 9 on the outer ring when you send to TDC. Do this for whatever course you got for your target and your AoB is set into the TDC and with the PK on it will update as the ship gets closer. As long as the dial points to the correct course you have a near perfect AoB. Next you need range and bearing, get this from the steadimeter. Check your firing solution on the attack map and make adjustments as necessary.

"Wait a minute I don't have time to do all this" you say.
"You better have the time" I say "Else you'll never live to see the inside of Tokyo Bay". Those DDs patrol in a more or less circular pattern, wait till he comes around again and make the time. Angry DD + shallow water = short career. Hope you are doing this at night or bad weather, even less chance of seeing Tokyo if you're not.

If I was in your shoes I'd use a vector analysis shot for this DD.
All you need is course and speed and your all set.
"Wait a minute I don't know what a vector analysis shot is" you say.
"See Rockin Robbins bag of tricks sticky thread for full details" I say.

Good luck and good hunting

Magic

[timmyg00]

Originally Posted by Tieg

I will admit...the majority of my time was CEP....what a drag that thing was except at battle stations..

CEP was better than bearing recorder...!

TG