Why the Submarine is the unsung hero at Midway -- true story.

[WernherVonTrapp]

During the battle of Midway, as ineffective as they were in actually causing any physical damage to the IJN, the land based planes are nevertheless credited with disrupting/dispersing the IJN carrier TF and preventing the carriers from spotting their deck with torpedo planes and dive bombers. They kept the fighters on deck, landing, refueling and launching again and again. So they did contribute in an ironic but significant way.

Originally Posted by WernherVonTrapp

During the battle of Midway, as ineffective as they were in actually causing any physical damage to the IJN, the land based planes are nevertheless credited with disrupting/dispersing the IJN carrier TF and preventing the carriers from spotting their deck with torpedo planes and dive bombers. They kept the fighters on deck, landing, refueling and launching again and again. So they did contribute in an ironic but significant way.

The key is everybody contributed.

I quote from Clear for Action page 205:

On word of the incoming attack every plane that could fly was sent into the air from Midway. These were twenty-seven dive bombers, six new Grumman Avenger torpedo planes, four B-26 medium bombers armed with torpedoes, sixteen B-17 Army bombers and twenty-seven Navy fighters, most of them outmoded Brewster Buffaloes. Because the fighter planes were needed for the defence of the island, the American attack groups had to carry out there mission without fighter protection. In that first attack, five of the torpedo planes and two of the B-26's failed to come back. They heavily damaged and set afire the carrier Kaga and an unidentified cruiser. It was during this attack that Major Lofton Henderson of the Marines dived his disabled plane into Kaga, proving that American's too, knew how to die.

This is not wartime propaganda, it's from a serious American naval history book published 22-years after the battle and conforms almost perfectly to the "official" Air Force version of events. That said, it's almost but not quite fictional.

[soopaman2]

You almost have to take multiple testimonies from differring sides and draw your own reality based on the events during and the overall outcomes.

I'm sure Nimitz and Yamamoto have differing opinions on why Midway turned out the way it did, but the overall outcome is all that mattered,

The losses were incurred on the warships and aircrews and not so much on the subs, so their (surface vessels) roles were magnified in relation to the subs.

[nikimcbee]

The USN always had problems with PR that were deeply institutionalized from the top down

Funny you should mention that. I read in a book about the USS Pampanito about an account of the " Take her down" action with the Growler and H Gilmore's death. In that book, a crewmember mentioned that how it is potrayed in the official story, Gilmore cries taker her down and he dies, but in the book it says he was killed out-right and none of that happened like the Navy potrayed it. I had never heard this before except in this book (from a crew member who served on the Growler(?) )


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_W._Gilmore

Simultaneously, the Japanese crew unleashed a burst of machine gun fire at Growler’s bridge, killing the junior officer of the deck and a lookout,[4] while wounding Gilmore himself and two other men. “Clear the bridge!” Gilmore ordered as he struggled to hang on to a frame. As the rest of the bridge party dropped down the hatch into the conning tower, the executive officer, Lieutenant Commander Arnold Schade — shaken by the impact and dazed by his own fall into the control room — waited expectantly for his captain to appear. Instead from above came the shouted command: “Take her down!” Realizing that he could not get himself below in time if the ship were to escape, Gilmore chose to make the supreme sacrifice for his shipmates. Schade hesitated briefly — then followed his captain’s last order and submerged the crippled ship.

[nikimcbee]

However, since the Japanese couldn't see any way of keeping the US from getting involved if they descended on British and Dutch colonies they went ahead and including knocking out the U.S. Pacific Fleet on their war plans. A poor move if Yamamoto endorsed doing it. But then I always thought he was overrated anyway.

It would have been interesting if Yamamoto had lost out to the "old guard" of the IJN and they used Battleships to attack PH. If i recall, the Yamato was brand new. She would have eaten our fleet for lunch (and want seconds).


On a side note, I wish somebody would make a movie about the midget subs there. That has always been my favorite aspect of PH.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

If i recall, the Yamato was brand new. She would have eaten our fleet for lunch (and want seconds).

The only battleships in the Pearl Harbor strike force were Hiei and Kirishima. Yamato wasn't even in service, being commissioned into service on the 16 of December.

It wouldn't have mattered, because almost all the US battleships were powered down and couldn't have used their main batteries.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The only battleships in the Pearl Harbor strike force were Hiei and Kirishima. Yamato wasn't even in service, being commissioned into service on the 16 of December.

Even worse she wasn't deemed operational until May 27th, 1942 due to delays and setbacks in training her crew, particularly on the new 18.1 inch guns.

[WernherVonTrapp]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

This is not wartime propaganda, it's from a serious American naval history book published 22-years after the battle and conforms almost perfectly to the "official" Air Force version of events. That said, it's almost but not quite fictional.

According to Shattered Sword, Major Lofton Henderson crashed into the sea, along with 5 others from his squadron. He was the first Marine aviator KIA during WWII, hence his namesake for Henderson Field.
In fact, Henderson and his men of VMSB-241 were attacking the Hiryu and the Soryu on the port side of the carrier formation, and there is was no damage to Kaga caused by B-26 bombers.

In this respect, it is very fictional and goes to show how many embellishments permeated the history of WWII, though this is nothing new. In the book, The Tenth Fleet, there were deliberate fabrications by the U.S. concerning U-Boat sinkings that never occurred. I suppose it was done sometimes for morale, sometimes for glory and sometimes for accolades but in all such cases, it was nothing but fiction.

Originally Posted by soopaman2

You almost have to take multiple testimonies from differring sides and draw your own reality based on the events during and the overall outcomes.

I'm sure Nimitz and Yamamoto have differing opinions on why Midway turned out the way it did, but the overall outcome is all that mattered,...

Undoubtedly, you must always take multiple testimonies if you have more than one witness, and even then, you have to weigh what the witness says against the known variables of physical evidence that exists. This is the only path to the truth. Surely, one can always rationalize their own reality to conform to what they want to believe, but drawing a reasonable conclusion based on the totality of the facts will be the concensus. Yamamoto and Nimitz had differing opinions even before the battle of Midway began.

[I'm goin' down]

And, Ladies and Gentlemen, the the Oscar goes to the NAUTILUS! (Thunderous applause.)

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

And, Ladies and Gentlemen, the the Oscar goes to the NAUTILUS! (Thunderous applause.)

Your supposed to do an honorary montage before the announcement ya silly goose!

Here it is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Nautilus_(SS-168)

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

And, Ladies and Gentlemen, the the Oscar goes to the NAUTILUS! (Thunderous applause.)

The Oscar should go to the air groups from Enterprise and Yorktown with a Best Supporting for the HYPO code breakers.

Nautilus can have the daytime Emmy for Best Supporting.

Yamamoto gets the Razzie.

[soopaman2]

Famous Actress sold for scrap:

Nautilus completed her 14th, and last, patrol at Darwin on 30 January 1945. From Australia, she was routed on to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where she arrived 25 May for inactivation. Decommissioned with a bottle of champagne over the forward six-inch (152 mm) gun on 30 June, she was stricken from the Naval Vessel Register 25 July and sold 16 November, to the North American Smelting Company of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, for scrapping.

[I'm goin' down]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

And, Ladies and Gentlemen, the the Oscar goes to the NAUTILUS! (Thunderous applause.)

Originally Posted by Randomizer

The Oscar should go to the air groups from Enterprise and Yorktown with a Best Supporting for the HYPO code breakers.

Nautilus can have the daytime Emmy for Best Supporting.

Yamamoto gets the Razzie.

[J0313]

After reading all these post's it is amazing that so little is known by so many about a battle that was so important to American history, Excluding those who aren't American of course. I've known about most of these little tidbits of info about the Battle of Midway Since I was a kid, and I'm 45 years old. My Grand father was a plank owner on the USS Grenadier. He was with her from the time she left the shipyard till they had to scuttle her in the Indian Ocean thanks to a Jap aerial depthcharge. His boat was part of the cordon at Midway. History is very important and should be taken seriously by everyone. That is how we honor our past and that is the way we keep from repeating our mistakes in the future.