Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)

[Jungman]

You have to change the sensitivity for each Hydrophone setting inth enemy AI_Sensors.dat. Since there is a value there, it overrides the Sim.cfg.

It is set about .03 IIRC, changes here are interesting. I know someone did along time ago.

You should be able to make the enmey active sonar and passive sonar pick you up from far away. I think you want the Hydrophones to pick you up far away then have it come and investigate.

The DD are rather stupid in this regard. I have to pratically surface to get their attention.

Just to get the DD to be a challenge (they have no decent search pattern) You can make the hydorphone more sensitive, but even more take away the distance penalty, and make the detection time longer.

What this wil do, the DD will know you are there with the higher sensitiviy setting inside the AI_Sensor.dat file if you move at all. So sitting quite at zero speed will allow you to surprise a convoy.

If you move at all, they pick you up, but with aslonger detect time, the chance to get a sold detection takes a few minutes,. Enough time to surface and do your dirty work, but not so long to dive to a safe depth, as they come after you.

If they get within Active sonar range, the can DG you. Another mod lets you get under the active sonar if you are fast enough, maybe that can be changed also for the Hydrophone.

The upshot is to get the DD a chance to search for you after a time. As it is, they are too easy to avoid and get away from.

[caspofungin]

that's exactly what i've been trying to do! any way you can tell me how to change the sensitivities in ai_sensors.dat? or, barring a quick tutorial in hexediting, show me where i can get a file w/ sensitivity set to 0?

[Jungman]

The setting is there, it is called Sens followed by the usual XXXX format. Right now I am busy with another game... but if you se this to zero, for which, the Hydrophones or the active sonar, or both?

ther is a unique value for Sens for each Active sonar of seven, and the pasive hydrophones of seven types.

Making it zero would make then un able to detect you?

I thought you wish them to be as above post?

Anyway, open AI_Sensors.dat, look for say "Type144P" following past that is "Sensitivity" after that a "ways beyond XX_XX_XX" is the real setting, it is not following immediately as normal (thus that tool will not work). that is where it lies.

I never really did anything with it (expect copy down the numbers), I know someone did and it does change the detection rate, better or worst.

[caspofungin]

i was under the impression that setting sensitivity to 0 in ai_sensors would force the game to use the values in sim.cfg -- something along those lines earlier in the thread.

what program would you recommend using to change it?

[CB..]

if you open the ai_sensors.dat with TT's analyzer and look for the hydrohones sensitivity you find the hex number--

sensitivity = 00000000000400000064000000420000001611FA


problem how do you set that to

sensitivity = 0 ?

is it

sensitivity = 0

or 000000000000000000000etc

i i did try changing the hex number to the same number shown for the radar (figured that would be a higher sensitity than hydrophones)
but the results were just bizaare--

i'm fairly stumped on this one might have to go for the ad hock method of just increasing the number of escorts until it's so difficult to get past then to reach the convoy that you don't mind if they don't react too much when you start sinking ships etc--bit of a mess tho

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by gouldjg

@Redwine

What is anum_bold or bold_launcher?. This is what I found in the sensors.sim near the bottom and I presumed it may be decoys but think I am very wrong.

In fact what is a ubold?

Sorry I can not confirm if this is decoy or not.

I am so sorry, i feel bad, i was claiming for you, and you with that big problem sorry.

About your data, it is corect, those are the decoys and decoy launcher.
They was described into SH3Sim.act, but i was not able to found them.

Now we can change its life time, it bubble surface, and may be the decoy noise, it last is hard to do, because is similar to the change of sensivity into AI-Sensors, the hex number is so long.

Any way this may be a help to reduce the Ubber DDs behavior, increasing the decoys effectivity.

Originally Posted by CB..

if you open the ai_sensors.dat with TT's analyzer and look for the hydrohones sensitivity you find the hex number--

sensitivity = 00000000000400000064000000420000001611FA


problem how do you set that to

sensitivity = 0 ?

is it

sensitivity = 0

or 000000000000000000000etc

i i did try changing the hex number to the same number shown for the radar (figured that would be a higher sensitity than hydrophones)
but the results were just bizaare--

Yes, it is a long number and i really dont understand how to use the File Analyzer from TT.

I try loading Rule, Chose File button, but no way. I do not know how to use the program .


About the emove of Crew rating, i remove all them from the u-505 and no way, the same behavior is still present, they are Ubber DDs.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Redwine

Yes, it is a long number and i really dont understand how to use the File Analyzer from TT.

I try loading Rule, Chose File button, but no way. I do not know how to use the program .


About the emove of Crew rating, i remove all them from the u-505 and no way, the same behavior is still present, they are Ubber DDs.

i was confused about how to use the analayzer too-- i'm not sure if i'm using the correct method but what i do is this

i open the program
click load rules
select the AI_sensors rules
then click test rules

all the info appears in the right hand window
then i can click on the various entrys and they appear in the smaller selection boxes to the left
then i can edit them and click UPDATE

then close the program--

if your un sure then re-open the program and load/test the rules again to see if your changes have "stuck"

i think the thing with the crew rating removal is not that it solves all the problems with the DD's
BUT it makes them behave much more consistently SO you can then edit their sensors more reliably
you see what i mean?

it does mention the range and size of bomblet circle for the hedgehogs in the act file -so maybe another thought might be to nerf the hedghogs a little as these are pretty lethal especailly if the DD's drops DC's from the rear and K-guns at the same time--

you know i'm not sure the game really does read much from the AI_sensors.dat after all this--

if i set the noise and waves factor to zero then i get detected at far greater distances then the max distance set in the dat file ---

so i can't help thinking were ona wild goose chase here

the noise and wave factors are what controls the maximum sensor distance -- the AI_sensors.dat max distance entrys don't really do anything at all

:hmm: in fact i'd say that out of all the possible entrys that affect the DD sensors-- the noise and waves factors in the sim.cfg are -by a long long way- the most crucial

i'd allso say that the Devs changed the whole system when they released the 1.4b patch-- i did all this on the V1 boxed version of the game and it was a whole lot more logical--i don't know what's going on with it in the patched version

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by CB..

i was confused about how to use the analayzer too-- i'm not sure if i'm using the correct method but what i do is this

i open the program
click load rules
select the AI_sensors rules
then click test rules

all the info appears in the right hand window
then i can click on the various entrys and they appear in the smaller selection boxes to the left
then i can edit them and click UPDATE

then close the program--

if your un sure then re-open the program and load/test the rules again to see if your changes have "stuck"

i think the thing with the crew rating removal is not that it solves all the problems with the DD's
BUT it makes them behave much more consistently SO you can then edit their sensors more reliably
you see what i mean?

it does mention the range and size of bomblet circle for the hedgehogs in the act file -so maybe another thought might be to nerf the hedghogs a little as these are pretty lethal especailly if the DD's drops DC's from the rear and K-guns at the same time--

you know i'm not sure the game really does read much from the AI_sensors.dat after all this--

if i set the noise and waves factor to zero then i get detected at far greater distances then the max distance set in the dat file ---

so i can't help thinking were ona wild goose chase here

the noise and wave factors are what controls the maximum sensor distance -- the AI_sensors.dat max distance entrys don't really do anything at all

:hmm: in fact i'd say that out of all the possible entrys that affect the DD sensors-- the noise and waves factors in the sim.cfg are -by a long long way- the most crucial

i'd allso say that the Devs changed the whole system when they released the 1.4b patch-- i did all this on the V1 boxed version of the game and it was a whole lot more logical--i don't know what's going on with it in the patched version

Thanks CB, i was unable to use File Analyzer, it is made for a defaul installation on "Program Files" folder, we have not that folder, we have "Archivos de Programa" folder, even if i give the correct path to the file into "Archivos de Programa", instead "Program Files", the program reject me giving an error message, "File do not exist"

I need to duplicate the installation i think so, almos for the files to be modified


About the noise and wave factor, the behavior is correct i think so....... the max range must to be in favorable conditions, and must to have a certain atenuation by thses factor.

Into a swiming pool, with no waves and noise, you have the max range abilable, and when there are noise and/or waves, this max range is affected and diminuished. It is correct in my opinion.

I understand you point about the removing of crew rating, the extrange is i remove them, and with the incredible slow down sensors, they still catching me.

About the helgedogs, if i am not wrong, they was directional charges, like as the Anti tank ones, they explodes by contact, looking down, and eject a directional blast down, not too much at side or up.

It is imposible to model with present settings, they have a spheric blast radius.
I have setting min and max blast radius to 2m, it is sure exagerated at sides and up, but i am not sure at down, any way i dont remember how much explosive charge they had, may be a 2m down is too much too.

In real life i soupose the real behavior was, if they touch a lateral, and explode, they was not able to perforate the hull, but if they touch the sub in the upper zone, they was designed to rech the hull a meter or two under and perforate it.

Do you suggest some changes on these values ?

May be min radius 1m max radius 2m ?

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Redwine

Thanks CB, i was unable to use File Analyzer, it is made for a defaul installation on "Program Files" folder, we have not that folder, we have "Archivos de Programa" folder, even if i give the correct path to the file into "Archivos de Programa", instead "Program Files", the program reject me giving an error message, "File do not exist"

I need to duplicate the installation i think so, almos for the files to be modified


About the noise and wave factor, the behavior is correct i think so....... the max range must to be in favorable conditions, and must to have a certain atenuation by thses factor.

Into a swiming pool, with no waves and noise, you have the max range abilable, and when there are noise and/or waves, this max range is affected and diminuished. It is correct in my opinion.

I understand you point about the removing of crew rating, the extrange is i remove them, and with the incredible slow down sensors, they still catching me.

About the helgedogs, if i am not wrong, they was directional charges, like as the Anti tank ones, they explodes by contact, looking down, and eject a directional blast down, not too much at side or up.

It is imposible to model with present settings, they have a spheric blast radius.
I have setting min and max blast radius to 2m, it is sure exagerated at sides and up, but i am not sure at down, any way i dont remember how much explosive charge they had, may be a 2m down is too much too.

In real life i soupose the real behavior was, if they touch a lateral, and explode, they was not able to perforate the hull, but if they touch the sub in the upper zone, they was designed to rech the hull a meter or two under and perforate it.

Do you suggest some changes on these values ?

May be min radius 1m max radius 2m ?

for the analyzer perhaps you could create a folder called program files
and create a dummy SH3 installation

just empty folders called UBISOFT
with empty silenthunterIII/data/library folders inside each other then copy the dat file into the libray folder---maybe the anayzler would find and open the file from there then you could edit it and move it back to your proper installation? worth a shot

i think the thing with the max distance setting on the sensors is that with the noise and waves factors set to zero-- you have the perect conditions for detection at maximum range- yet the sensor detects at far greater distance than the max distance in these perfect conditions--so--it doesn't seem to follow that logic

in perfect conditions the sensor should work perfectly right up to it's maximum distance then stop-- so this isn't whats happening- it works far beyond it's maximum distance in perfect conditions--

beats me-- either it doesn't read the max range settings in the dat file
or it uses them in an entirely different way--


the crewrating thing-- are the DD's allways behaving the same ?
rather than the randomised way they behaved before?
if so then that's some thing you can work with-- making them weaker and weaker till you get the results your after-- it was the randomisation that was spoiling the tests before?

i d say yup reduce the damage from the hedghogs if theyre killing you with them every time-- if theyre never killing you with their normal DC's then it's the hedgehogs that are the uber problem?

does that make any sense?

[gouldjg]

Like you guys, I am waiting for the hex to be decoded so no joy there.

I IMHO seem to be getting better chances when facing the uber pin drops.

I cannot figure what I have different from you guys apart from gameplay which is different for all.


Anyway I am going to start testing on the custom mission contributed by Hemisent.

I think I will remove all crew rating as suggested by CB. Then I will probably try setting all to elite, etc etc.

If I tweak in between these, i may get good results, may not.

P.s. Have you guys ever changed depth presision for DC to 100. It seems they have all sorts of problems with this high number and end up blowing their rears.

I have just set it to 50. There does not seem to be any difference when below 30 so what the hell.

Do you guys actully think the active sonar gets locked onto sub or is their a possibilty that the devs set the bubbles to be the all indicator.

I say this because in the sub dat files, i see many references to bubbles which seem to indicate different areas of sub. Maybe this is just for the bubble effects or maybe, just maybe, this is what active locks onto.

@redwine

so it was the decoy :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: I had doubts,

It would be nice to establish what can be changed in this filder. I found that the decoys behaved better on the last couple of test so am not jumping straight into changes yet but maybe will do later.

The hedgehog is tricky little git and I hate being knocked out by those.

Guys, just one more slight thing that was noticed.

In some of the main game files i.e. act etc, I notice the line warning of a hydro problem within the game. I am just wondering if one or more ai hydrophones are broken and if so waht class, year, and crew rating could this be.

It also referenced about possible crashes when things are set to destructible in the zones.cfg. This was noticed by myself in the first ever Hollywood as I ended up with a cloaked sub after setting some stuff to destructible.

SO is the hydro warning for ai, or sub as we all claim our own hydro is useless.

Anyway back to the testing,

Good Luck

p.s. I am not playing with elevation or arcs at this moment in time as I do not feel this causes many problems plus it is too complicated for me to digest all that maths.

[CB..]

Gouljg hi! whats the line in the file about the hydrophone warning might shed some light on things i didn't spot it what does it say? anything usefull or just generic

i made myself a customised damage model too (only for personal use tho)
i wanted all the variuos internals of the boat to be easily damaged and destroyed but tried to keep the hull integrity as tough as possible so i could be disabled and still survive--ie engines scopes batteries destroyed etc but still have 100% hull integrity-- much more fun that just watching your hull integrity go down--
ito be honest im no expert on the zones file so it was more luck than judegment that got the result i was after - i read the warning but didn't fully understand it i must admit fortunately i haven't had any problems with it --i did get a crash when i worked on the crew health a bit too much (if they have less than a cerain amount of health per crew the game crashes if one get ijured for some reason)

i managed to get it so i get frequent crew injurys and deaths forcing me to make use of the barracks and make more officers medics and repair guys instead of the more combat orientated torp gunners machinists etc makes life more balanced (and the choice more interesting)--great fun really if the DD's would just play ball--

in fact if i could make the hull invincable (with out it blowing the balance of the changes) i'd do that right now lol!

i'd much rather sink to the bottom with all crew dead and everything completely wrecked and fully flooded -and have to declare my self as sunk instead of the game prematurely ending the patrol for me with a lame abandon career screen--means you get the DAS BOOT scenario from time to time and keeps you hoping untill all hope is lost as it were!!

if only the DD's were as responsive the editng as the rest of the game is we'd be laughing!

[gouldjg]

CB

There is a master plan of mine to put all of this is one pack once this last nagging problem is on a even ground. I think most of the remaining hardcore players will be able to tweak the small differences as they please. As long as I get a fair pack out that does not force players into the way or the highway style of play.

It is quite easy to get things destroyed on sub now that we know how to up the hull integrity plus the fact that we also know exactly what crash speed is also.

I propose to half the sub HP so that collisions with ships are better represented in the game i.e. your dead, period.

Of course it is then a matter of halving everything else to compensate i.e. all weapons etc.

I suspect we will automatically get better deck gun representation and better surface battles as all ships have lower weapon values to match the low hit points the dev team allocated to them. This should make things like the surface battles a bit more fun and longer lasting.

The trick is so that the torps are not so affected and thus the ships will still have a glorious end. In the past we had tweaked too much with ships upper deck values and thus people started getting boring sinkings as the upper areas were not triggered to explode when in contact with water and the crash speeds.

I do feel that it may be best to up the armour of the DD keels though. We should just not be able to have that much success with them.

I want to combine the air power mod but set new damage values to match new gun values and new zones.cfg values.

I want to add the latest radar mod so players get better chance to dive unless they feel lucky or suicidal.

I just need to check the sub nets and hope this can be tweaked as players seem to get annoyed that they get a fatality when colliding with nets. Maybe the rebound number can be tweaked for both this and ships hmmmm.

I want better DD behaviour but still escape possibilities either by decoy or evasion only.

Mines should kill instantly and so should the big guns on battle ships so I will maybe leave these to default.

Equipment should be destroyed as you state.

Flooding can now be tweaked to be better and more thrilling.

The question is (what can prevent the player from diving when hit by shells that historically blew holes in sub). Any ideas??????????????

I hear 2 sides

1. The sub can actually take a lot of shell damage

2. One shot stops sub from diving due to hole.

Which is best??????

All in all I want all this combined into one mod. I am not concerned with extreme realism here, just better gameplay. If I have to up hydro ranges or sonar ranges to get longer attacks then so be it. The DC will be accumlative in this anyway. I think the murky water has a added advantage in that if we cannot see underwater, then we do not know exactly how close a DD came to sub so the accumalative effect will work. It is just getting the DD to stick around rather than clearing of after first loss of contacts.

I was actually thinking of messing with DD turn rates or rudder settings so that a wider circle is made during search mode. This may just keep them in the same area longer and also help with the 90-degree arcs issue that so many claim to have problems with. Do you have any thoughts on this?

Personally, I don't care if we have 4 different crew ratings. I can quite easily live with 1 or 2 if it proves stable to have 2.

Can I strongly suggest you guys start playing with depth precision in your tests.

I set the DC to 50 and get some better results. I am about to test at 60 to see if better.

I set Hedgehog to 80 but yet to see any major difference but let me test that 3 more times before setting to 90 or 100.

With these settings, everything seems a little less precise with the uber DD.

Concerning the hydro warning.

I have a vague recollection that it said something in the lines of useless though. You have my word on that.

I am not sure if it stated that something was actually broke or just warning that something could break like the setting of things to be destructible in the zones cfg warning.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by gouldjg

The question is (what can prevent the player from diving when hit by shells that historically blew holes in sub). Any ideas??????????????


I was actually thinking of messing with DD turn rates or rudder settings so that a wider circle is made during search mode. This may just keep them in the same area longer and also help with the 90-degree arcs issue that so many claim to have problems with. Do you have any thoughts on this?

if it is possible to set up the zones cfg for the bridge to trigger an explosion then this might help? it's a good side bet that the DD's do actually aim for the bridge even if they don't they nearly allways hit it!!!

this would mean that a direct hit on the bridge would trigger a major explosion or some other sort of damage effect---that would cripple the boat--

this would work if it is possible---(the compartment father stuff? link damage effects ?) if the electric engines/diesel engines and or batteries and or dive planes were badly damaged after a direct shell hit to the bridge compartment-- it would become next to impossible to submerge untill those systems were repaired (and by that time-- your dead)

i don't know how to do this but may be you do?
it does hint that one compartment can be linked to various other systems when the damage is calculated


then if the shell hits any where else on the boat things happen as normal---gives both set of people what they want and it's dynamic--


in a recent patrol i was lining up on a nearby convoy getting ready to dive and wait for them to approach when an aircraft attacked -- EVERYTHING was smashed- and i mean everything the LOT
engines batteries diveplanes scopes compressor pumps torpedo tubes radion hydrophones sonar rudder even the propellors!!! ALL DESTROYED!!!
i didn't get chance to submerge and couldn't submerge because i had no engines propellors or diveplanes--
i wasn't going anywhere after that and the hull integrity was still at 100% it was actually strangely amusing!! "oh well that's the end of that one then" sort of thoughts lol- but it is the sort of thing your after?

it's what i like i must admit--- your dead completely so as far as the patrol is concerned but can imagine your self limping home--


as for the DD's i don't care what is done to them (getting too frustrating now!) as long as they do something interesting!!!

if i don't get some decent gameplay soon i'll go mad!!!

thanks for all the info i'll have a think about it all- hey is it possibel as you hint to control how long it take for the sub to be registered as destroyed?

wonder what hydrophone is broken? perhaps it's one particular setting in the hydrophones? liek max angle or something -- perhaps thats why the DD's can hear you even if you directly behind them sometimes..i dunno it's a pain in the arse what ever it is!!

[Col7777]

CB and the rest, I may have found something.

All I did was rename the Sim.cfg file so the game didn't read it, then I played a few single missions, the first mission I encountered a single merchant, as I raised the scope I went red straight away then he fired on me, after 2 good shots I was damaged.
I tried to get a shot off on him but he was uber, he zig-zagged and fired accurately.

I played the U505 mission, I was detected straight away and hedge-hogged to death first pass, I went to silent running and engines off btw.

Another mission, I was detected straight away and DC'd, I tried to evade but it got me.

The Sim played OK btw with no hiccups, so if it didn't read the Sim.cfg it got the info from somewhere else, see what you think.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Col7777

CB and the rest, I may have found something.

All I did was rename the Sim.cfg file so the game didn't read it, then I played a few single missions, the first mission I encountered a single merchant, as I raised the scope I went red straight away then he fired on me, after 2 good shots I was damaged.
I tried to get a shot off on him but he was uber, he zig-zagged and fired accurately.

I played the U505 mission, I was detected straight away and hedge-hogged to death first pass, I went to silent running and engines off btw.

Another mission, I was detected straight away and DC'd, I tried to evade but it got me.

The Sim played OK btw with no hiccups, so if it didn't read the Sim.cfg it got the info from somewhere else, see what you think.

genius at work!!! nice one Col that's a huge find!!! and most likely the answer once we've all had a think about it!! what do you think is going on?
if we remove the sim.cfg will the game be more dependant on the sensor.dats