Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)

[gouldjg]

I am in need of all and any info relating to peoples opinion on DD behaviour.

At the moment I think they are Screwed up too much with the one minute they are dumb and then the pin point dropping of DC.

I think it is a combination of the sonar and Hydro settings where as the sonar has been too nerfed yet the hydrophone settings are still pinpoint and track till 10 mtres.

I have managed to alter the hydrophone min range to 100 so that DD is not so accurate but I need to tweak more to get all things balanced rather than working on a small part of a big problem.

Sry had to leave as typing.

I am currently merging the Air Power settings with the new radar mod but want to get some good settings on DD's as well.

Hopefully it all can be formed together into one sensor Mod rather than being in different mods.

[chris911]

i also think that the sinking rate of the DC is to high maybe it is possible to slow them down by 20 or 25 %.

[gouldjg]

Hi Chris

The problem with slowing DC down is that we may end up with a situation where it is better to stay at flank speed all the time which is not how the game should play.

Now I have set the sonar arcs to 80 rather than 90 and min range to 100.

Having a sonar arc of 60 is just too dumbed down and people will know that even though this was done, the DD was still dropping on their heads due to hydrophone settings.

I have set min Hydrophone to 100 rather than 10 and seem to be having a better gameplay though you all will understand it takes more than just a few missions to confirm if in fact this is working.

[chris911]

Another idea i have is that it is maybe possible to create a heavy DC which if about four or five times as strong as normal DC but is only used in 5 % of all DC runs. that is not total unrealistic when u read How U 47 was sunk. also maybe a random sinking rate would be nice . but the question is , if the physics of the ingame world would allow such changes.

[gouldjg]

Unfortuantly that also is immpossible.

I am getting better results as far as the pin pointing is concerned, but I need to get depth presision down a notch and balance all through testing at different years.

I do not really care for extreme realism here as long as it feels right then I am fine with that.

It is maybe worth considering getting rid of of the rookie DD crew and replacing with other type.

I think it is time to track back through all threads and finding out everything that is know to date with regards to DD behaviour in game.

I also think it is worth considering writing some escape tactics to post as Mod in itself.

Exactly how many people do reverse for 5 seconds then hit flank ahead to make tighter turns when DD is passing etc etc blah blah.

Yep it is time to merge all ai work into one and tweak it.

Nuff said

[_alphaBeta_]

Well I usually use Jungman's sonar mod located here.

My major destroyer problem is when you came up against an elite crew. As Jungman says in the readme with this mod, it's nearly impossible to get away. The destroyer can out turn you and always keep you inside the 90 degree angle necessary for ASDIC in the stock game.

That mod creates a minimum distance and decreases the ASDIC angles. At least this way you have a sporting chance. The only problem I see is with the minimum distance. It sometimes causes DDs to act unrealistically stupid. The other day I had a DD coming straight for me and then stopped right before the DC run because he lost me. He then made a hard turn and went in the other direction. While this minimum distance makes things a little more realistic, the game engine wasn't exactly designed to work with it causing some strange behavior.

Perhaps if the minimum distance was decreased a little more to encourage the DDs to make their DC even though the target was lost right beforehand.

[gouldjg]

Whilst the longer nerf on sonar min may help a little, it did not stop the pin point DD strikes. The 60 degree arc looks to me to have also affected other sonars in the game which is in turn leading to dumb DD.

This can be confirmed by checking with timetravellers tweak tool.



The hyrdophone default min range for ai is set to 10 mtres which means the DD can pin point attack run as your turning and its right on you tail up untill last second.

After reading some background stuff, It seems that DD should have a 300 yards blind spot at front and thus after that the DC was lucky guessing.

I am almost there to getting it to a 50/50 chance of not having a DC land too close but still close enough to do serious damage.

No longer does the DD follow me into a turn and to be honest he seems to come from more varied attack runs.

And no longer is he as dumb as he is now.

This may take a while to perfect rather than slapping up a quick fix.

Even Jungmann has re-considered some of the sonar mod settings and is currently re-looking at it all as we speak and when he gets time.

Maybe with the new tool on the block, we may start to merge all these power mods into one pack.

Thats only if all goes well.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by gouldjg

After reading some background stuff, It seems that DD should have a 300 yards blind spot at front and thus after that the DC was lucky guessing.

Hi!

The sonar blind spot is (in real life) not a constant, but dependent on the type of sonar and the depth of the U-boat. Early war sonars had a relatively shallow angle (say, 10-15 degrees wide just below the surface); this rewarded deep-diving submarines, since the range at which the surface ship lost contact increased as the submarine went deeper. Basic geometry gives a reasonably good first approximation of the size of the blind spot at different depths.

Later sonars had narrower beams but could look down at about a 70 degree angle, as well as looking to the side, resulting in a much smaller "blind spot" and giving a fairly accurate reading of the U-boat's depth.

In addition, destroyers developed a tactic where one ship would stand off and use its sonar to track the submarine while radioing directions to the close-in "blind" ships moving in for the kill.

It's not clear how well (if at all) SH3 models this kind of behavior or allows it to be modeled.

Pablo

[gouldjg]

I have had the 1 DD staying still while the other one does his run and it was either a fluke or good programming.

What does not happen in SH3 is when a DD loses contact, he has a small circular look around about 5 times and does not expand his circle of search.

Now as I believe it, in realife, they could leave the sub for half an hour but then have enough info to determine its maximum radious of travel. They then swooped onto the areas again and started it all over.

We have to work with what we got in game here. Sometimes realism sucks, especially if it did not really hapen anyway.

I see no point being too specific about realism if it is doing silly things like pin poiting.

I will tweak and tweak till that pin point has gone. Then nerf down the DC but up the decay times.

Hours and Hours of unrealistic testing is what is required to get this right nothing more and nothing less.

[_alphaBeta_]

Originally Posted by gouldjg

After reading some background stuff, It seems that DD should have a 300 yards blind spot at front and thus after that the DC was lucky guessing.

This definitely helps, and is more realistic to implement (which Jungman has already done). The problem is this:

The added blind spot sometimes cause the DD to break off the attack run and simply listen on the hydrophones (and then start the whole process over again while going in another direction). A real-life destroyer would still charge the area even after losing the contact (perhaps estimating where the target would be). The in-game destroyers are not programmed for this. They don't back off from the last known position either. They stay close to you which actually makes you safer with the mod. Obviously the devs didn't have DDs leave and come back because they didn't have a blind spot in their release.

With the blind spot in its current form, you just silent run and wait for the destroyer to charge in. He will lose the ASDIC lock and will not be able to hear you either. You're home free from there.

Either the blind spot must be nerfed to the point that the DD will still commit to the attack, or something else has to be worked out. I don't think anyone will be changing the DD behavior to back off so we may have to leave the blind spot out so they actually attack.

[gouldjg]

Exactly

Thats why I am aiming at 10 to 50.

I just do not think the active sonar is working alone here and there seems to be another sensor at work here hense the DD following you into a turn.

It is like you say, making sure the DD commits to the attack but yet we should also having it attacking 3 or 4 degrees out of line.

That the aim anyway.

[ICBM]

And what about the Hedgehogs, do they behave OK? The last time I lasted 2 patrolls when those things became operational. (Got a full HH volley straight on the decks..

[Redwine]

To finish those Ubber Dds behavior may be a combination of min range, min elevation and max elevation settings.

Timetraveller give us the key to do it.

Not sure but if he is right, 0 degrees is pointing up just to the sky, 90 degrees is just pointing front at sea level, and 180 is pointing down, at sea floor.

In example, i we want a beam of 30 degrees, and 10 degrees under the surface, will be :

min elevation 100

max elevation 130

If we put a min range of 200m, we will obtaiin a sonar beam wich will works 10 degrees under the surface, in a 30 degrees beam, and beyond 200m.

I made test on AI sonar and AI Hydrophones...... but they DDs in U-505 mission still detecting me when i made a full rudder turn, even when they was just over me.

May be the changes must to be made on all sensors.

But there are 39 sensors in the file, looking them with the Mini Tweaker Tool from Timetraveller.

I need to know what is each name of sensoe to identify which one is corresponding to a pasive and active sonar.

What is a QGAP or a QC1P...... a Type 268 etc...etc.

Do some body have a list of what is each one ?

Go ahead, still working.

[gouldjg]

Originally Posted by Redwine

To finish those Ubber Dds behavior may be a combination of min range, min elevation and max elevation settings.

Timetraveller give us the key to do it.

Not sure but if he is right, 0 degrees is pointing up just to the sky, 90 degrees is just pointing front at sea level, and 180 is pointing down, at sea floor.

In example, i we want a beam of 30 degrees, and 10 degrees under the surface, will be :

min elevation 100

max elevation 130

If we put a min range of 200m, we will obtaiin a sonar beam wich will works 10 degrees under the surface, in a 30 degrees beam, and beyond 200m.

I made test on AI sonar and AI Hydrophones...... but they DDs in U-505 mission still detecting me when i made a full rudder turn, even when they was just over me.

May be the changes must to be made on all sensors.

But there are 39 sensors in the file, looking them with the Mini Tweaker Tool from Timetraveller.

I need to know what is each name of sensoe to identify which one is corresponding to a pasive and active sonar.

What is a QGAP or a QC1P...... a Type 268 etc...etc.

Do some body have a list of what is each one ?

Go ahead, still working.

Agreed

In my silly testing, I changed all sea sensors min range. Some where set at 10 min so I presumed to set them at 50 or sometimes 75. This is when I started getting better results.

I am as stuck as you for knowing what is what. Maybe it is time to post each piece of equipement up on a board and challenge the realism experts out there. They always seem to come through on stuff like this.

[caspofungin]

check this diagram out -- has some basic info

http://www.de220.com/Electronics/Son...20Patterns.jpg