Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Redwine

As i wrote before, i am convinced of that......

Same mission, same files settings, some times it is stupid to evade them, some times it is near to imposible, alternatively.

I can believe the dev team made some thing like this and can understand why for !

Yup i know but it needed proving---so we could move onto the real problem if possible

perhaps the Dev team were being post ironic---they knew we'd all buy it anyway--so they decided to have a bit of a laugh at us--i really did get the feeling they were taking the p*ss somtimes on the official forum---i got the impression they thought we were all rather sad--



what i'm going to do is make up a SNS file for the DD's based on the american DD's SNS files and use this file for all the DD's in the hope that while i'm doing this i might learn something--

[Col7777]

Forgive my ignorance here, I'm just trying to help, is the Contacts file any way related to the sensor and sim files?

[CB..]

AFAIK Col it just relates to the contacts as displayed on the map how far out to show a radio contact report what spped is dispayed as slow medium fast and how many ships would be shown as small medium or large convoy etc but as we know from SH2 days you can never be entirely sure about anything!!


EDIT///

here's little bit of information that might be new (probably not but it may be usefull)

found in the SH3Sim.act (main folder)

opened up in a hex editor and did a search for sonar--

it mentions the sensitivity entry in the sim.cfg saying that if the sensitivity is set to zero in (i assume?) the AI_sensors.dat file then it takes the reading from the sim.cfg -- which if is true then altering the sensitivity in the sim.cfg won't have any effect unless the AI_sensors.dat sensitivity is zero --- if setting it to zero forces the game to read the sim.cfg for this setting then maybe it will become immune from any randomisation?

really need time travellor for that one as i'm not sure how to set the sensitivity to zero in the AI_sensors.dat file (there being a rather long hex entry there in the anaylser)

but it might be a way round this---the same applys to the hydrophones and other sensors allso they all ahve sensitivity settings in the sim.cfg---

if this statement in the SH3Sim.act file is correct then these sensitivity entrys in the sim.cfg are at present ignored---and may be being caught in what ever randomisation is taking place--- if by setting them all to zero in the sensors.dat- we force the game to use the settings in the sim.cfg they may not get randomised--bit desperate but WTF


my moneys on the crewrating being randomised from the campaign.RND

as novice crew are useless no matter what sensors they have--
if the game ignores the elite crewrating and sets them randomly then there's a one in four chance of the DD's being novice and useless and this would help explain things--???

if we can find the crewrating options in the code and delete the 0 1 2 and 3 rating so there is only elite to choose from: then if the game is randomising the crewrating you will allways get elite crews---just a thought
any one got any ideas?


(giving all the DD's the american sensors had no effect at all---by the way)

[CB..]

:hmm: can you say PING!!!
i edited out the crewrating entry from the 505 mission and it loaded and ran perfectly normally-- i didn't play the mission thru as i was just testing the idea that the game DOES NOT read the crew rating entry OR that it DOES NOT take any notice of it

and the game DOES NOT use the crew rating entry written into the mission file--so how does it decide what type of crew to give the DD's?

it's just a shot in the dark but it's likely that it randomises it or has some other system for allocating crewrating--- one thing for sure is that (in single missions at least--i havent tried editing out the crew rating from the campaign but i will do that next)

the game does not need the crewrating entry in the mission file to load and run the missions

PING.....
as we know novice crews are useless and elite ones are fairly uber -
this would be important

the game does not use/need the mission file crewrating entry --if it ignores it which is what this implys then what is the default crewrating?
and is it randomised? would explain a lot

if you want to test this open the mission file with wordpad and edit the

crewrating=4

entry to this

;crewrating=4


adding the ; to comment it out (the game ignores anything preceeded by a ; AFAIK)

if we are really lucky then simply removing all the crewrating entrys from the campaign.RND will actually solve the whole issue - i'm too tired to test this right now but will have a look tommorrow--good night all!!

[caspofungin]

re your question about americansensors--

the r node is for radar. in brit ships, type 276, 277 etc. in yank escorts, SC, SG, others.

H node for hydrophones
N node for active sonar/asdic
R node for radar
C/D nodes for radio direction-finding and radar warning (not implemented)
also another node for ai_visual

i hope you're right re sensitivity in ai_sensors -- i've just about had it w/ this issue. and going back to playing a reg campaign is out because now i know things are f'ed up.

[Marhkimov]

At least it seems like you guys are onto something. Once you figure out how the AI works, I'm sure that a workable mod won't be very far off.

[Col7777]

Well you asked for a few thoughts CB, again forgive my ignorance, but does the crew rating only relate to the player and not the AI, also something you said earlier made me think of SH2, where some things are not read, perhaps something they never got round to.

Also have you noticed when the player sub either submerged or surfaced how the aircraft pick you up, when submerged I have seen a good few fly overhead then turn and fly off again, as though something has told them you are there somewhere?

I wonder if instead of increasing the numbers what about adding a ( - ) minus sign instead, we've seen lots of weird things happen by doing the opposite sometimes.

If I'm off track then ignore all this I'm just throwing some thoughts around.

Edited to add:
I just read this on the other SH3 section, do you also think that after you sink a ship the sound of it breaking up MIGHT effect the DD's picking you up, that might explain some of it but not when you haven't sank anything.
Have you noticed any difference when there is no convoy around, do the DD's pick you up then, I'm thinking it might be the convoy ships masking you somehow?

[Redwine]

What about the folder "Patterns", inside has 3 diferent patterns .mis, are they for campaign or may be adds some random patterns into single missions ?

I renamed them, so all 3 are pattern 1, and random behavior still present, i think so....

[Redwine]

What about the folder "Patterns", inside has 3 diferent patterns .mis, are they for campaign or may be adds some random patterns into single missions ?

I renamed them, so all 3 are pattern 1, and random behavior still present, i think so....

@ CB :

Looking into the file you mentioned, looking that explanation, but dont found which values to touch.

Inside there are sentences for Bolds too, with life time, surface of the bubbles, noise of the bubbles....... interesting.

Originally Posted by caspofungin

re your question about americansensors--

the r node is for radar. in brit ships, type 276, 277 etc. in yank escorts, SC, SG, others.

H node for hydrophones
N node for active sonar/asdic
R node for radar
C/D nodes for radio direction-finding and radar warning (not implemented)
also another node for ai_visual

i hope you're right re sensitivity in ai_sensors -- i've just about had it w/ this issue. and going back to playing a reg campaign is out because now i know things are f'ed up.

Yanki types use those with typewrites ? SC, SG etc ?

May be we need to droop down only those sensors ?

[CB..]

i had a feeling you guys would under-estimate the significance of the crew rating--think about it
i know it isn't minimum this or maximum that or technically sourced from some magnificent historical manual somewhere !!

but if a novice crew is useless

an elite crew is uber

and the game doesn't get this info from the mission file--

etc
or are you trying to tell me that there is no difference between a novice crew and an elite one all of a sudden?

what's the trouble were looking at here again?
sometimes useless and sometimes uber DD's

now i haven't tested this as yet but my moneys on that horse right there :hmm:

i'm going to return all my sensor dat settings to stock and edit out the crewrating from the campaign.rnd file - and then run a couple of patrols--
if there is no change/improvement- then it'll need further work--if it turns out that the crewrating entry is completely redudndant and literally doesn't do anything then we will have learn't something new and can eliminate that from the equation--

but if it does do something and the game is randomising the crewrating on the DD's (et al) then that will explain most of what is going on

[Der Teddy Bar]

The missions in the pattern folder are those that the games uses when you use the navigational officers search patterns.

[Der Teddy Bar]

regarding the game not using the crewrating, most likely not so. I would presume that it nothing is found then a default value would be used.

As per this line from one the .act files... If 0, then the value from sim.cfg file is taken.

This is a real sample of what might occur, I am saying that the sim.cfg file is not used in this area. The sim.cfg is for the u-boats AI, AFAIK.

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

The missions in the pattern folder are those that the games uses when you use the navigational officers search patterns.

Thanks Teddy , i note the changes on them has no effect to solve the problem here on this topic...... :hmm: :hmm:

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

regarding the game not using the crewrating, most likely not so. I would presume that it nothing is found then a default value would be used.

As per this line from one the .act files... If 0, then the value from sim.cfg file is taken.

This is a real sample of what might occur, I am saying that the sim.cfg file is not used in this area. The sim.cfg is for the u-boats AI, AFAIK.

EXACTLY!!!!!


that is why i am suggesting editing out the crewrating entry from the campiagn.rnd --- if this forces the game to use a default value- and we are really lucky --then that default value will be 3 or 4 veteran or elite--(if were unlucky it'll be 0 or 1 or 2 )
but either way if it does default to a set level the dang thing will at least be consistant and any further adjustments to the sensors.dat will be consistantly applied right across the board--meaning any further adjustments will work in every situation ---if it is randomised then an expert such as Time travellor may be able to kill/edit the randomisation --

the missions load normally with no crashes with the crewrating entry commented out---so this actually has the potentail to be the soloution to the problem---

on the sensitivity issue-- we need to know how to set the sensitivity to zero in the AI_sensors.dat in order to force the use of the sim.cfg entrys---(if that information is correct and current) as the number is actually a long hex number when viewed in TT's analayser and i don't know the correct way to describe zero in hex we need him or some one else to describe the correct way to edit the entry

unless it quite literally is simply 0
as described in the afore mentioned act file

UP_DATE

well i've just run a campaign patrol (all crewrating entrys commented out in the campaign.rnd file)

stock AI_sensors.dat

day light -medium fog - choppy seas -1943

i approached a convoy from the rear and stumbled across a rear gaurd DD

i can be pretty sure that if the crewrating defaults to a set level when there is no crewrating included in the mission/campaign files then it defaults to reasonable level (probably veteran)
the DD behaved in an intelligent manner performing well - conducting search patterns and DC drops with a reasonable level of accuracy without ever seeming uber-- i took minor damage but was able to escape after around 20 minutes the DD returning to the convoy---

and i haven't seen this sort of intelligent behaviour from the DD's --good but not uber---as we have noticed they are usually useless or nightmarishly uber--

dunno what will happen next patrol of course
:rotfl:

but the DD used a definite gameplan in the attack (rather than just relying entirely on it's sensors- meaning that the AI was "thinking" not just reacting)

as this sort of behaviour is not dependant on the quality of it's sensors but on the quality of it's AI -IMO i believe this is the answer (to the randomisation anyhuw)

once the randomisation is stopped then any fine tuning of the sensors can be undertaken and tested and refined knowing that it will "stick" in game

it's simple to test--

just open the single mission file or campaign.rnd file with wordpad

use the edit/replace function to replace

CrewRating

with

;CrewRating

and the game will not read the crewrating from the mission file and will use the default "hard coded" level of crew experience for the DD's (and all the other vessels in the mission)

if it's consistent in it's choice of default crew experience then you will able to conduct all future sensor edits and get reliable consistent results--

i dunno about you guys but this one "feels" right
it fills in all the spaces-- I could be wrong of course (frequently am) but this is IMO the right "ball park" try it see if it helps

[CB..]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

re your question about americansensors--

the r node is for radar. in brit ships, type 276, 277 etc. in yank escorts, SC, SG, others.

H node for hydrophones
N node for active sonar/asdic
R node for radar
C/D nodes for radio direction-finding and radar warning (not implemented)
also another node for ai_visual

i hope you're right re sensitivity in ai_sensors -- i've just about had it w/ this issue. and going back to playing a reg campaign is out because now i know things are f'ed up.

cheers caspofungin
the SG sensors are radar--nice one!

try the crewrating edit for me if fancy it-- see if the normal campaign gameplay changes at all--i know what you mean it's another reason why i test in a campaign rather than single missions--at least i can enjoy the patrol as i'm doing the test