F16's Scrambled As Pilot, 75, Triggers Obama Alert

kraznyi_oktjabr · 08-06-11, 11:50 AM

Platabus could you as a pilot answer to small question? It was mentioned that there is restricted airspace of 30 miles in diameter. From edge of restriced airspace how long it would take for Piper Cub to reach center? If we assume that president is in that location and that aircraft is flying in relatively low altitude, how much warning time Secret Service would have?

Platapus · 08-06-11, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

Platabus could you as a pilot answer to small question? It was mentioned that there is restricted airspace of 30 miles in diameter. From edge of restriced airspace how long it would take for Piper Cub to reach center? If we assume that president is in that location and that aircraft is flying in relatively low altitude, how much warning time Secret Service would have?

First of all, it has been over 20 years since I last flew so I am not a knowledgeable source for the size of prohibited airspace. There are other members much more current and knowledgeable than I am on these.

Taking your 30 mile diameter circle as given, it would depend on the exact model of the J3. J3's had different engines. But let's assume an "average" J3 speed of between 65 and 75 knots

To get to the center of your 30 mile circle (15 mile) would take about 12 minutes. A little less if the pilot is diving and has no intention of surviving.

The payload of the J3 is about 500 pounds. That's a lot of explosive that could be carried.

Not saying that a J3 is the uber weapon of choice, but I would hardly dismiss the threat of a J3 in the hands of a dedicated Bad Guy.

Jimbuna · 08-06-11, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

First of all, it has been over 20 years since I last flew so I am not a knowledgeable source for the size of prohibited airspace. There are other members much more current and knowledgeable than I am on these.

Taking your 30 mile diameter circle as given, it would depend on the exact model of the J3. J3's had different engines. But let's assume an "average" J3 speed of between 65 and 75 knots

To get to the center of your 30 mile circle (15 mile) would take about 12 minutes. A little less if the pilot is diving and has no intention of surviving.

The payload of the J3 is about 500 pounds. That's a lot of explosive that could be carried.

Not saying that a J3 is the uber weapon of choice, but I would hardly dismiss the threat of a J3 in the hands of a dedicated Bad Guy.

Rgr that....a cunning and effective method of delivery to someone determined to get past security measures already in place on the ground.

Platapus · 08-06-11, 12:13 PM

I wonder if modern heat seeking missiles would even lock on to a J3?

Especially when you have 10 minutes. That's not a long time, especially when some of that time will be spent evaluating the thread and deploying defenses.

Imagine a J3 diving with the engine off how would you shoot it down?

Would a stinger type weapon be able to lock on to a stopped J3 engine?

Small arms fire is probably not going to do it.

You can poke a lot of holes in a J3 and unless you hit the main wing beam it might keep on its ballistic course. I suppose a 20 mm round on the engine or the explosive payload would take care of it, but how hard would that be to accomplish?

I hope the USSS has already figured this out.

mobucks · 08-06-11, 12:41 PM

Kinda negligent to turn off your radio in a private plane. Bad airmen(woman)ship if you ask me.

Its nice to know at least the people in place for security do their jobs.

Platapus · 08-06-11, 01:08 PM

It is important to recognize that this was not some prohibited zone in the middle of nowhere. This was centered on O'hare Airport, which gets a little busy at times. O'hare is the third busiest airport in the world.

What was she doing flying within 30 miles of O'Hare without her radio on? Even if it is not required due to airspace designations for that area/altitude, wouldn't you think it would be a good idea to have it on?

Besides, part of the Private Pilot's education is non-radio air intercepts. When these F-16's intercepted her, they did it in an specific manner that communicates their intention. She must have a pretty high self image if she thinks that F-16's would fly close to her just to admire her and her aircraft. Planes don't do that, they maintain separation, especially military jets and civilian props.

I think this lady needs to lose her ticket until she goes through some remedial training. She does not seem to have the judgment expected of a pilot operating in crowded airspace.

Here is a nice FAA document that describes Temporary Flight Restricted Zones and at the end of the document covers the interception procedure including non-radio communication.

http://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/not...dia/tfrweb.pdf

Krauter · 08-07-11, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

It is important to recognize that this was not some prohibited zone in the middle of nowhere. This was centered on O'hare Airport, which gets a little busy at times. O'hare is the third busiest airport in the world.

What was she doing flying within 30 miles of O'Hare without her radio on? Even if it is not required due to airspace designations for that area/altitude, wouldn't you think it would be a good idea to have it on?

Besides, part of the Private Pilot's education is non-radio air intercepts. When these F-16's intercepted her, they did it in an specific manner that communicates their intention. She must have a pretty high self image if she thinks that F-16's would fly close to her just to admire her and her aircraft. Planes don't do that, they maintain separation, especially military jets and civilian props.

I think this lady needs to lose her ticket until she goes through some remedial training. She does not seem to have the judgment expected of a pilot operating in crowded airspace.

Here is a nice FAA document that describes Temporary Flight Restricted Zones and at the end of the document covers the interception procedure including non-radio communication.

http://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/not...dia/tfrweb.pdf

Agree whole heartedly. Just seems negligent and really stupid after reading her comments...

kraznyi_oktjabr · 08-06-11, 01:11 PM

Thank you Platabus. I read about Piper J-3 and I understood that its cruise speed is just 65 knots which is about 75 mph (121 km/h). Wouldn't it make sense to fly in low altitude in same direction with highways and try to make aircraft to look like being just one more car speeding in road for radar operator?

Platapus · 08-06-11, 01:15 PM

I am sure there are advantages of approaching at all altitudes. Not being an suicidal terrorist, I can't opine on which would be the best.

Since the J3 could legally approach until the edge of the TFR zone, I would imagine a higher altitude for the dive speed might be better. The lower altitude makes you more vulnerable to small arms fire and kills the ballistic trajectory option.

It is an intriguing problem to consider.

Jimbuna · 08-06-11, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

I wonder if modern heat seeking missiles would even lock on to a J3?

I hope the USSS has already figured this out.

Possibly radar guided?

MH · 08-06-11, 03:17 PM

Maybe optical image recognition....

Platapus · 08-06-11, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Possibly radar guided?

The RCS of a J3 head on would be significant

Quote:

Originally Posted by MH

Maybe optical image recognition....

That would be the best. Do we have any ManPads that use that system? I am not a Manpad guy.

08-06-11, 11:50 AM	#1
kraznyi_oktjabr Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Republiken Finland Posts: 1,803 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Platabus could you as a pilot answer to small question? It was mentioned that there is restricted airspace of 30 miles in diameter. From edge of restriced airspace how long it would take for Piper Cub to reach center? If we assume that president is in that location and that aircraft is flying in relatively low altitude, how much warning time Secret Service would have? __________________ You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic. - Dr. House

08-06-11, 12:13 PM	#4
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,402 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	I wonder if modern heat seeking missiles would even lock on to a J3? Especially when you have 10 minutes. That's not a long time, especially when some of that time will be spent evaluating the thread and deploying defenses. Imagine a J3 diving with the engine off how would you shoot it down? Would a stinger type weapon be able to lock on to a stopped J3 engine? Small arms fire is probably not going to do it. You can poke a lot of holes in a J3 and unless you hit the main wing beam it might keep on its ballistic course. I suppose a 20 mm round on the engine or the explosive payload would take care of it, but how hard would that be to accomplish? I hope the USSS has already figured this out. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

08-06-11, 01:08 PM	#6
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,402 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	It is important to recognize that this was not some prohibited zone in the middle of nowhere. This was centered on O'hare Airport, which gets a little busy at times. O'hare is the third busiest airport in the world. What was she doing flying within 30 miles of O'Hare without her radio on? Even if it is not required due to airspace designations for that area/altitude, wouldn't you think it would be a good idea to have it on? Besides, part of the Private Pilot's education is non-radio air intercepts. When these F-16's intercepted her, they did it in an specific manner that communicates their intention. She must have a pretty high self image if she thinks that F-16's would fly close to her just to admire her and her aircraft. Planes don't do that, they maintain separation, especially military jets and civilian props. I think this lady needs to lose her ticket until she goes through some remedial training. She does not seem to have the judgment expected of a pilot operating in crowded airspace. Here is a nice FAA document that describes Temporary Flight Restricted Zones and at the end of the document covers the interception procedure including non-radio communication. http://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/not...dia/tfrweb.pdf __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

08-06-11, 01:11 PM	#8
kraznyi_oktjabr Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Republiken Finland Posts: 1,803 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Thank you Platabus. I read about Piper J-3 and I understood that its cruise speed is just 65 knots which is about 75 mph (121 km/h). Wouldn't it make sense to fly in low altitude in same direction with highways and try to make aircraft to look like being just one more car speeding in road for radar operator? __________________ You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic. - Dr. House

08-06-11, 01:15 PM	#9
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,402 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	I am sure there are advantages of approaching at all altitudes. Not being an suicidal terrorist, I can't opine on which would be the best. Since the J3 could legally approach until the edge of the TFR zone, I would imagine a higher altitude for the dive speed might be better. The lower altitude makes you more vulnerable to small arms fire and kills the ballistic trajectory option. It is an intriguing problem to consider. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

08-06-11, 12:41 PM	#5
mobucks Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 713 Downloads: 209 Uploads: 0	Kinda negligent to turn off your radio in a private plane. Bad airmen(woman)ship if you ask me. Its nice to know at least the people in place for security do their jobs.

08-06-11, 03:17 PM	#11
MH Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 3,184 Downloads: 248 Uploads: 0	Maybe optical image recognition....