social engineering getting more and more popular?

[MH]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

Yes, but you've been telling her she's a daughter, with all of society's stereotypes of that. That will limit her choices on a psychological level. Free will after a lot of indoctrination (accidental or otherwise) is not really free.
.

There is no limit on psychological level unless you assume that telling someone that she is a girl/woman somehow limits her.
Actually you don't need to tell woman that she is woman.
She sort of naturally acts as women but sometimes because of environmental presser she can chose to prove that she is more a man than a man...
Some Lesbian who's supposedly have differently hardwired brain act more manly naturally.
Unless you claim that being a gay is environment thing-then you know....this experiment certainty should not take place.
It actually contradict itself right now.

I don't expect my daughter to be just good mother and house wife and prepare soups for 10 kids from morning to night.
Quite opposite but the above stuff is freakish bull.
Beside some nutty feminists who push their personality disorder ideas riding the woman discrimination wagon i think most women enjoy being treated as women.
I'm not saying that there is no discrimination toward women but the above its not the way to go.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Vendor

ABBA and Ace of Base,they suck.....I am glad that you've been here, when it was if I may ask?

Oh just around Stockholm I was in a summer exchange program back in high school.The Swedish family the father was a lawyer so they had some little house on a lake out of town as well this was in summer '93 '94 worked out pretty well for me as it seemed that Swedish girls that where 16 or 17 where rather uh.... interested in Americans to be 17 again the next summer
I had a drill instructor screaming in my face it was a contrast to say the least good thing I did not attempt any social engineering then the Sarges face would have turned fry an egg red.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Oh just around Stockholm I was in a summer exchange program back in high school.The Swedish family the father was a lawyer so they had some little house on a lake out of town as well this was in summer '93 '94 worked out pretty well for me as it seemed that Swedish girls that where 16 or 17 where rather uh.... interested in Americans to be 17 again the next summer
I had a drill instructor screaming in my face it was a contrast to say the least good thing I did not attempt any social engineering then the Sarges face would have turned fry an egg red.

LOL

The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Edward Bernayes

[vienna]

The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Edward Bernayes

"Conscious and intelligent"? Who determines those values in the equation? Social engineering, to me, is an insidious aspect of education to be avoided. Growing up in the 50's and 60's, our generation was the first to be exposed to the "benefits" of social engineering; one has only to look at American society as it has "progressed over the last 30-35 years to see the "benign" effect of social engineering. (Yes, I'm using a lot of quote marks; perhaps I'm trying to meet a quote-a...) The nations values have disintegrated in direct proportion to the effects of educational social engineering. From the advent of the Yuppies in the 80's to the upcoming generation who feels they are entitled to certain perks they have not earned (a result of the "everybody wins" aspect of social engineering) to the appaling decline of even simple educational progress in schools, the effects of promoting social engineering over essential educational needs is evident. Schools should return to teaching the necessary life skills and knowledge as they did before the pop-psychologists and niche cultural interests hijacked the educational system and turned it into their labs and our kids into "lab rats". After about 50 years of "I'm OK, You're OK" style "progressive" education all we have to show for it are dumber students and a worse society...

Now, i believe I will give my "quote" key a needed rest...

[August]

What's with all the white text posts? They're pretty difficult to read against a white screen.

Originally Posted by vienna

"Conscious and intelligent"? Who determines those values in the equation? Social engineering, to me, is an insidious aspect of education to be avoided. Growing up in the 50's and 60's, our generation was the first to be exposed to the "benefits" of social engineering; one has only to look at American society as it has "progressed over the last 30-35 years to see the "benign" effect of social engineering. (Yes, I'm using a lot of quote marks; perhaps I'm trying to meet a quote-a...) The nations values have disintegrated in direct proportion to the effects of educational social engineering. From the advent of the Yuppies in the 80's to the upcoming generation who feels they are entitled to certain perks they have not earned (a result of the "everybody wins" aspect of social engineering) to the appaling decline of even simple educational progress in schools, the effects of promoting social engineering over essential educational needs is evident. Schools should return to teaching the necessary life skills and knowledge as they did before the pop-psychologists and niche cultural interests hijacked the educational system and turned it into their labs and our kids into "lab rats". After about 50 years of "I'm OK, You're OK" style "progressive" education all we have to show for it are dumber students and a worse society...

Now, i believe I will give my "quote" key a needed rest...

Just had to quote it all again.
Outstanding!

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by MH

There is no limit on psychological level unless you assume that telling someone that she is a girl/woman somehow limits her.

Unfortunately, it might.

To use your deliberate argument from extreme in a constructive manner:

I don't expect my daughter to be just good mother and house wife and prepare soups for 10 kids from morning to night.

If such a stereotype still formally exists in a particular society, then no one will disagree that the girl label might be somewhat limiting. Even if there is no law against it, societal pressure and indoctrination in explicit and subtle form would have ensured the vast majority of woman do just that.

And while in the First World the zeitgeist has moved away from such old-fashioned values, the stereotypes are still there. Even if you miraculously (and I doubt it) manage to avoid using or implying any of those stereotypes, society will fill in.

It is impossible to eradicate such values from society as a whole, but the idea here is to reduce its effect by minimizing its imprint at the smallest ages (when the child is most vulnerable to them).

[Respenus]

The idea should be about teaching the children the meaning of free will in face of society and its stereotypes. A woman, no matter what limitations are imposed upon her by old traditions and (mis)conceptions, should know that she, or indeed, anyone, male and female, so that I don't fall myself into that stereotype, can do/become whatever they want, should they apply their will into it. In some cases it can be difficult, almost impossible, yet determination, not brainwashing, can show the most effect. How better can a woman show that she can do what a male can, if not by doing it herself. How can she break the old stereotypes, if not by not participating in them herself. We should also not forget that there might be those who choose such a life. As long as it is theirs to choose (I realise how difficult it is to ensure that with such images being imposed on them), they should be given that option. Not everyone wants to be a sexless, asexual worker drone.

On the question of education in general. I have to agree that ensuring, let us say, progress and peace in the future, we should start with our children. Yet we must not replace one bias with another, because the second they meet something or someone which/who doesn't comply to the worldviews imposed on them, s*** is going to hit the proverbial fan. Education in this case should focus on diversity of the human condition. Not saying that there is one pre-determined path when the individual's sex is concerned will, in my opinion, be much better than imposing a somewhat wider, yet still limited picture of gender roles. As far as society itself is concerned during such education, focus should not be either on the non-critical acceptance of the left or the hard-headed denial of everything different by the right (it's not always only the extreme left and right that have such ideas, thus I omitted such adjectives). As citizen Portalis said during the French revolution, the state is the society created by individuals amongst themselves (l’État est la société des hommes entre eux). When it comes to human societies, there are no absolutes, so focus should be on allowing the greatest number the greatest personal freedoms, without going into cultural relativism and using either conviction (ideology) or religion as an excuse for the limitation of human rights, either inside or outside the group.

In the end, this is a fairly complex question, one which would demand years of serious study. Better get on with it then...

[vienna]

What's with all the white text posts? They're pretty difficult to read against a white screen.

Apologies for that; I was writing on an unfamiliar computer whose screen did not show up the characters as bold white when I typed the message; if I use that cumputer again, I'l be more careful...