Pensions Outrage In UK

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Coal minor eh?

I'm a retired cop...pleased to meet you, again

In all seriousness though, is anyone getting a bit of deja vu? I mean, it's been thirty years since The Specials did 'Ghost Town', but the lyrics could be for today. I guess its true what they say about history repeating.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Oberon

In all seriousness though, is anyone getting a bit of deja vu? I mean, it's been thirty years since The Specials did 'Ghost Town', but the lyrics could be for today. I guess its true what they say about history repeating.

One of my fundamental concerns is the fact that on previous economic/industrial downturns there was still a healthy apprenticeship scheme in many industries to help rejuvinate manufacturing etc. when the upturn came but today there are no such schemes or industry for that matter.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

One of my fundamental concerns is the fact that on previous economic/industrial downturns there was still a healthy apprenticeship scheme in many industries to help rejuvinate manufacturing etc. when the upturn came but today there are no such schemes or industry for that matter.

I hear you, the death of our primary and secondary industry has been a concern of mine. It's all well and good moving towards a tertiary civilization stage if you have the society to support that, which we do not. Furthermore, tertiary based civilizations are more vulnerable to economic downturns than primary and secondary ones because of their reliance on the economic sector for employment and business. We desperately need to take a step back in the sector stages and focus on secondary and primary industry for employment purposes...however the big problem with that is the quotas set by the EU which put limits on what farming and fishing industries can do. I'm not sure where the EU stands on Secondary industry, but Tertiary seems relatively untouched, which is probably why we're thrashing like mad trying to keep our head above water in the Tertiary sector.

Oh, and for those who are not sure what I mean by Primary, Secondary and Tertiary industry, here's a quick link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-sector_hypothesis

It was something I was taught in Geography which has stuck with me because it is a very true proposal in most instances.

[TarJak]

The problem is that by the time you have gotten to 3rd stage economy based largely on services rather that production, you have priced yourself out of the primary and secondary markets.

The only way you can compete then is to drop your salary which no-one wants to do because of the hit on standard of living.

I don't know the answers but going back stages is not as easy as you might think unless people are prepared to forego their previous lifestyles. This only happens when the economic downturns bite hard enough on enough people to force large sections of the economy to shift direction.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by TarJak

The problem is that by the time you have gotten to 3rd stage economy based largely on services rather that production, you have priced yourself out of the primary and secondary markets.

The only way you can compete then is to drop your salary which no-one wants to do because of the hit on standard of living.

I don't know the answers but going back stages is not as easy as you might think unless people are prepared to forego their previous lifestyles. This only happens when the economic downturns bite hard enough on enough people to force large sections of the economy to shift direction.

Hmmm, good point, however it's coming up to a crunch time where people might not have much of a choice. Of course, the reductions will hit the poorest hardest and it'll be Greece in the UK. There is no real answer that will fix the problems we face without significant pain for most of the country. On one hand, raising the pension age is an inevitability, as our local MP put it last night in the commons the average life expectancy in the UK is rising at a critical rate, an unsustainable one even. However you cannot target pensions and public sector workers alone, you have to make the cuts across the board and treat everyone equally, you have to tax the richest as well as the poorest. I don't know if that is what they are doing, but there is a widespread belief that they are not, that they are hitting the poorest and the disadvantaged first, then hitting public sector workers, whilst leaving the bankers and rich people well alone, I don't know if this is true or whether it is a myth brought about by popular perception of the Conservative party however it doesn't have to be true for it to rile the people up. I have a feeling we are in for another 'Winter of Discontent', quite possibly two or three of them to be honest.

[Herr-Berbunch]

We've not much left in the primary, few people have the know-how to be in the secondary, that leaves everyone else answering phones - unless some bright spark decides to ship that out to India. Oh!

And whilst I don't want to get into a political row, yes the Tories may have started the downturn in the loss of primary and secondary industries, but Labour have done little if anything over their 13 years in the hot seat to reverse this.

Back OT, women (and men?) want equality, and this is just one more step towards something like that - still not equal in a lot of other areas, but slowly getting there. And we need to find some way out of this fiscal cock-up. I just wish Dave would stop announcing things and actually put some feelers out as to what the people think rather than announcing and then changing his mind. A bit ridiculous.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Bakkels

Eehm, not to be a pain, but first of all, you have different pensions ages for women and men in the UK? I find that kind of weird in the first place.
And it's 60 for women? Well I'm sorry but raising that age only seems a good thing to me.

I agree with you regarding this point, as long as child education times are also considered towards your pension- which they are here, iirc 3 years per kid.

Originally Posted by Bakkels

Over here the pension age just got raised a year ago. Yes there were some protests, but the bill made it through parliament. And I got to say, it's only natural. In the 50's, a very famous social-democrat prime-minister here introduced pensions, a standard pension for elderly people and general health care. Socialist as he was, even he said (back in the fifties, that is) that the pension age should rise to compensate for the increased life-expectancy.

The guy said it in the 50s, where we had full-employment. These times will never come back. I live near the Ruhrgebiet, which used to be the industrial heartland of Germany. Only a fraction of the jobs were shifted from the industrial to the service sector. Most jobs just vanished.

I might be subjective, as most old people I know/knew come from a working-class/lower middle class background. You cannot do manual labour indefinitely - and certainly not everybody can switch to an administrational job at old age, not only because of the skills but also because of an limited amount of these positions.
This is something which is not considered in a static age limit: the different worn-out levels of the people. There are certainly many people who are eager and fit enough to work till they reach a high age, nobody should stop them doing so, but not everybody has the skills, health and possibility to do so.

Another problem I have with the argument of the increased lifespan of the people. It is certainly true that we live longer. But should the consequence be that we all work till near death? Maybe we just should say good-bye to this 19th/early 20th century model of labour and enjoy the fruits that an increased productivity can purvey to us. Or do we need to re-indroduce barren, repetitive manual labour at a conveyor belt, just for the sake of creating jobs?

[Bakkels]

Originally Posted by Penguin

I might be subjective, as most old people I know/knew come from a working-class/lower middle class background. You cannot do manual labour indefinitely - and certainly not everybody can switch to an administrational job at old age, not only because of the skills but also because of an limited amount of these positions.
This is something which is not considered in a static age limit: the different worn-out levels of the people. There are certainly many people who are eager and fit enough to work till they reach a high age, nobody should stop them doing so, but not everybody has the skills, health and possibility to do so.

You bring up some good points. Over here it will be taken into account if you're doing manual labour that takes a bigger toll on the body over the years. The problem is objectively establishing which jobs are heavier physically, and how much compared to others/eachother.

[Betonov]

A retiree tells her teenage grand-daughter: when I was your age I was allready working
Response: grandma, when I'll be your age I'll still be working

[yubba]

Well our grand thinkers in D.C. opt for social commie crowney capitalism, they opt for pristein wilderness than drilling for oil, they opt too not drill in the gulf. They choose to regulate and create a unfreindy climate for businesses to grow, while their buddies get waviors. They opt for cleaner air, meaning, that coal fired electrical plants will shut down, without replacement plants up and running to replace the coal fired plants, meaning it's going to be harder to charge your electric car, and prices of everything will skyrocket. More Government is not the answer, government is the problem. If you want cleaner air plant more trees and quit using our oceans as toilets.

[STEED]

I like the way Cameron said I would be tougher on the unemployed and immigrants if it wasn't for the Liberals!

So why did you jump in to bed with them?

As for the Liberals they have lost the plot, if Clegg was a true Liberal he would say stuff you the coalition is off, but no he's had a taste of power and loves it.

As for the Unions going on strike on the 30th June big deal...Why don't all of the Unions walk out for good? That would cause Cameron one hell of a nightmare situation which could result in a prompt general election. Trouble is the Conservatives, Labour and Liberals are a wast of space and a total disgrace.

I unit such time where someone stands up and has the balls to do what is needed like getting us out of the bloody EU this country will remain on course for a third world country.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by STEED

I like the way Cameron said I would be tougher on the unemployed and immigrants if it wasn't for the Liberals!

So why did you jump in to bed with them?

As for the Liberals they have lost the plot, if Clegg was a true Liberal he would say stuff you the coalition is off, but no he's had a taste of power and loves it.

As for the Unions going on strike on the 30th June big deal...Why don't all of the Unions walk out for good? That would cause Cameron one hell of a nightmare situation which could result in a prompt general election. Trouble is the Conservatives, Labour and Liberals are a wast of space and a total disgrace.

I unit such time where someone stands up and has the balls to do what is needed like getting us out of the bloody EU this country will remain on course for a third world country.

I'd be saying to those bloodsuckers in Westminster...."Okay so your making adjustments to the working class pensions?......yours first and we'll all settle for equality".

[MothBalls]

A. Soylent Green

A Favorite film Quote from Red October "I am a politician, that means I'm a cheat and a liar" But the best way of dealing with politicians,

[antikristuseke]

Meh, i'm not going to live long enough to see my retirement anyway so i'm not too bothered, they will probably have the retirement age hiked up to 75 by then.