Second Amendment Under Attack In Congress

Penguin · 05-18-11, 08:52 AM

woo, hold your horses, August. It is a weak-counter-argument to the blunt generalization that all (U.S.) gun owners have somehow a fetish, to generalize yourself and call all Germans judgemental.

Especially in GT, we all make our judgement calls, towards other views and towards other nations. I think Sky's view is (in this case!

) quite represantative of the German view about American gun owners. Making a statement which already defines a law with all exceptions is not.

I speak for a minority here when I call this proposal idiotic, making nearly every Glock owner illegal - though I find it funny that it is called 308...

Personally I felt much more safer in states that allow open or concealed carry than in other states. Most owners I met are not distinguishable in their mental health from their non-owning counterparts - and yes: I've been to gun fairs in the deep South

August · 05-18-11, 09:10 AM

You people like nosy neighbors who always have to comment on our choice of bathroom wall paper, or the way we wash our cars, or any number of other personal things that have absolutely nothing to do with you.

Well the right to free speech allows you to be a Butt-in-ski but the same right also allows me to tell you what I think about such rudeness, and to think the less of you for being the moralizing busy bodies that you are.

Skybird · 05-18-11, 10:22 AM

Penguin, I did not feel attacked inappropriately at all by what August said. No cautioning needed, therefore!

August, this board in not "nationals exclusively", but is public and international. Everything being posted here is free to be commented by everyone, that includes me and of course also you.

Over here, we are not interested in the parking fees in let'S say Phoenix or Sacramento. It does not effect us in any way, and so we are not even taking note. The latest decisions by the Fed however do interest us, for they effect us as well.

What also does effect us is the national attitude of a foreign nation that defines the way it approaches international issues and other nations/people. Clture and media is such a thing. American movies and TV are omnipresent in many places of the world that are not any American at all. and what thes epropgrams are more filled with than anything else are violence, and weapons, and explosions, and then more of that. And this impacts on our own cultural climate over here as well. So we wonder why this is so, and we note this fetish that weapons are in your culture - you can hardly argue that it is only about pragmatic self-defence. For some, it is an obsession, for more it is a paramilitary issue, and for many it is a fanbatsy of one day needing to fight back hordes and hordes of criminal attackers that mean them bad.

Note that I said above that I have turned from somebody being against legal weapon ownership for principal reasons to somebody who tolerates and accepts gun ownership for self defence. It's just that I mark tighter limits than the American gun industry wants to see in place. And paramilitzary equipement and weaponry for me still have no legitimation to be distributed to a wide general public. Leave this where it belongs: with the military and law enforcement.

I described it above. It is softer a set of limitations than the laws we have in Europe, at last in Germany, and it is tighter a set of rules than it is in many American states.

Western media culkture is a very violent media culture, by content. Violence is the most favourite topic, the more explosions in a movie, the more successful it is. That may be true for Japanese or Korean movies as well. It's just that these are not so dominant on european media markets.

And I think it wouldn't hurt us if our culture would be less obsessed with violence and weapons. Media are one, though not the only point on the list to start with.

Of course you poeple inAmerica will do what youwantg to do inAm,erica anyway. But since we get effected by this issue as well, I just comment on this (having passed on the last two or three opportunitis when gunlaws were discussed in threads, btw.

). If you prefer to discuss parking fees in Phoenix, I'll pass.

mookiemookie · 05-18-11, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

American movies and TV are omnipresent in many places of the world that are not any American at all. and what thes epropgrams are more filled with than anything else are violence, and weapons, and explosions, and then more of that. And this impacts on our own cultural climate over here as well. So we wonder why this is so, and we note this fetish that weapons are in your culture - you can hardly argue that it is only about pragmatic self-defence.

American media wouldn't have the success it has internationally if there wasn't a demand for it. If Germans or Poles or Swedes or whoevers didn't have the appetite for violent American movies, TV and games, then there'd be no money in exporting them for foreign consumption. Demand creates product, not the other way around.

Skybird · 05-18-11, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

American media wouldn't have the success it has internationally if there wasn't a demand for it. If Germans or Poles or Swedes or whoevers didn't have the appetite for violent American movies, TV and games, then there'd be no money in exporting them for foreign consumption. Demand creates product, not the other way around.

No, it is not that one-lane road you claim. Demand can artifically be created, and is all the time. To do so is the job of the advertisement industry, and lobbying. One would not spend billions into that effort year by year if it were not producing returns the companies can count in dollars and cents.
That includes the weapons lobby. That includes Hollywood.

And like kids can get used to not like sweets as much as they usually do, you can also educate or influence people to find images of violence and weapons less attractive. For many of us, this also happens all by itself, naturally, when we become older.

Wolfehunter · 05-18-11, 11:22 AM

I disagree with you sky on these issues. If the person is responsible and has commonsense it shouldn't mater what weapon he owns as long as its used right. Now a battleship I agree is abit much.. But Heavy weapons should be fine. Government has to stop screwing the people. So people need a way to defend themselves. Pop gun isn't going to cut it dude.

MH · 05-18-11, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfehunter

If the person is responsible and has commonsense it shouldn't mater what weapon he owns as long as its used right.

That's the heart of issue.
Are there laws in USA that ensures for the above to be implemented or you talking about yourself.
I have a gun in my drawer too but i don't thing that everyone should be able to carry one.
There is no need for that.
Is USA a war zone or conquering the wild west.
Yes not fair.
Freedom to carry a gun seems to me more of American symbol than necessity.

yubba · 05-18-11, 11:33 AM

Fear the government that fears your guns. What part of, not to be infringed upon don't the consitutionaly impared understand ???

Can't have a well arm state miliatia if we don't have the same arms as the oppressive federal government.

mookiemookie · 05-18-11, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

No, it is not that one-lane road you claim. Demand can artifically be created, and is all the time. To do so is the job of the advertisement industry, and lobbying. One would not spend billions into that effort year by year if it were not producing returns the companies can count in dollars and cents.
That includes the weapons lobby. That includes Hollywood.

So if there were commercials for buggy whips on TV, it would become a viable product again? Sorry, doesn't work that way. Demand creates supply.

Platapus · 05-18-11, 02:49 PM

When was the last time anyone saw an advertisement for a gun on TV/Radio?

You rarely see advertisements in magazines for guns and than only in specialized gun magazines.

Penguin · 05-18-11, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

So if there were commercials for buggy whips on TV, it would become a viable product again? Sorry, doesn't work that way. Demand creates supply.

What about snake oil?

I just watched half an hour of commercial tv - which happens seldom enough in my private time, so I announce it. I asked myself the whole time while watching advertisements: It can't be real what kind of dumb, unnessessary stuff those folks want to sell..
Demand and supply definitely also works the other way around - yes, in its boundaries, everybody needs to drink, but the advertisement of a special beverage creates demand for this.

Then there is something you guys may not know about U.S. tv series and movies here. When the American studios sell their broadcast licenses, they usually sell it in bundles. They combine the pearls, some good stuff and lots of garbage together.
This is one of the reasons why there are so many american crap shows and films shown on tv here. This goes for Germany, but I am sure the studios have the same policy in other European countries.

Growler · 05-18-11, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

No, it is not that one-lane road you claim. Demand can artifically be created, and is all the time. To do so is the job of the advertisement industry, and lobbying. One would not spend billions into that effort year by year if it were not producing returns the companies can count in dollars and cents.
That includes the weapons lobby. That includes Hollywood.

And like kids can get used to not like sweets as much as they usually do, you can also educate or influence people to find images of violence and weapons less attractive. For many of us, this also happens all by itself, naturally, when we become older.

PARTY FOUL.

You mean to tell me that the European desire for American movies is solely based on media presentation and advertising? Sorry. that rationale doesn't work, Sky. EVERYONE who pays to see a movie - American or not - makes a CHOICE to do so. Where the rubber meets the road, it's a CHOICE. Unless, of course, the American media companies are subtly brainwashing Europeans into going to the movies... ?

No, sorry, total party foul. American movies are made today based on the perception of European ticket sales - I know this for a fact. If there's little to no European appeal in a title, it's chances of being made by a large studio become almost nil, because there will be so little European ticket sales. Advertising is only a small part of the whole process.

Skybird · 05-18-11, 10:21 PM

There is much to be said about "free will" and neural determinism, and in how far our freedom to chose depends on earlier stimuli that have formed our percpetion of ourselves and the world. But it is late over here (or early...), and I just remind of this and tell you that it is by far not that simple as you try to make it appear.

And no, I did not say that movie preferences are completely based on commercials. I hinted at that there is more reason than just commercials why people prefer violent, weapon-heavy action movies - resulting in more of that kind of movies and thus: according commercials. Which means I said something quite different.

Well, full stop here. It's 5:30.

05-18-11, 08:52 AM	#1
Penguin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Rheinische Republik Posts: 3,322 Downloads: 92 Uploads: 0	woo, hold your horses, August. It is a weak-counter-argument to the blunt generalization that all (U.S.) gun owners have somehow a fetish, to generalize yourself and call all Germans judgemental. Especially in GT, we all make our judgement calls, towards other views and towards other nations. I think Sky's view is (in this case!) quite represantative of the German view about American gun owners. Making a statement which already defines a law with all exceptions is not. I speak for a minority here when I call this proposal idiotic, making nearly every Glock owner illegal - though I find it funny that it is called 308... Personally I felt much more safer in states that allow open or concealed carry than in other states. Most owners I met are not distinguishable in their mental health from their non-owning counterparts - and yes: I've been to gun fairs in the deep South

05-18-11, 09:10 AM	#2
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 23,197 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	You people like nosy neighbors who always have to comment on our choice of bathroom wall paper, or the way we wash our cars, or any number of other personal things that have absolutely nothing to do with you. Well the right to free speech allows you to be a Butt-in-ski but the same right also allows me to tell you what I think about such rudeness, and to think the less of you for being the moralizing busy bodies that you are. __________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.

05-18-11, 10:22 AM	#3
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,620 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Penguin, I did not feel attacked inappropriately at all by what August said. No cautioning needed, therefore! August, this board in not "nationals exclusively", but is public and international. Everything being posted here is free to be commented by everyone, that includes me and of course also you. Over here, we are not interested in the parking fees in let'S say Phoenix or Sacramento. It does not effect us in any way, and so we are not even taking note. The latest decisions by the Fed however do interest us, for they effect us as well. What also does effect us is the national attitude of a foreign nation that defines the way it approaches international issues and other nations/people. Clture and media is such a thing. American movies and TV are omnipresent in many places of the world that are not any American at all. and what thes epropgrams are more filled with than anything else are violence, and weapons, and explosions, and then more of that. And this impacts on our own cultural climate over here as well. So we wonder why this is so, and we note this fetish that weapons are in your culture - you can hardly argue that it is only about pragmatic self-defence. For some, it is an obsession, for more it is a paramilitary issue, and for many it is a fanbatsy of one day needing to fight back hordes and hordes of criminal attackers that mean them bad. Note that I said above that I have turned from somebody being against legal weapon ownership for principal reasons to somebody who tolerates and accepts gun ownership for self defence. It's just that I mark tighter limits than the American gun industry wants to see in place. And paramilitzary equipement and weaponry for me still have no legitimation to be distributed to a wide general public. Leave this where it belongs: with the military and law enforcement. I described it above. It is softer a set of limitations than the laws we have in Europe, at last in Germany, and it is tighter a set of rules than it is in many American states. Western media culkture is a very violent media culture, by content. Violence is the most favourite topic, the more explosions in a movie, the more successful it is. That may be true for Japanese or Korean movies as well. It's just that these are not so dominant on european media markets. And I think it wouldn't hurt us if our culture would be less obsessed with violence and weapons. Media are one, though not the only point on the list to start with. Of course you poeple inAmerica will do what youwantg to do inAm,erica anyway. But since we get effected by this issue as well, I just comment on this (having passed on the last two or three opportunitis when gunlaws were discussed in threads, btw. ). If you prefer to discuss parking fees in Phoenix, I'll pass. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-18-11, 11:22 AM	#6
Wolfehunter Crusty Capt. Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,752 Downloads: 40 Uploads: 25	I disagree with you sky on these issues. If the person is responsible and has commonsense it shouldn't mater what weapon he owns as long as its used right. Now a battleship I agree is abit much.. But Heavy weapons should be fine. Government has to stop screwing the people. So people need a way to defend themselves. Pop gun isn't going to cut it dude. __________________

05-18-11, 11:33 AM	#8
yubba Admiral Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: in a neighborhood near you Posts: 2,478 Downloads: 293 Uploads: 2	Fear the government that fears your guns. What part of, not to be infringed upon don't the consitutionaly impared understand ???Can't have a well arm state miliatia if we don't have the same arms as the oppressive federal government.

05-18-11, 02:49 PM	#10
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,362 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	When was the last time anyone saw an advertisement for a gun on TV/Radio? You rarely see advertisements in magazines for guns and than only in specialized gun magazines. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

05-18-11, 10:21 PM	#13
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,620 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	There is much to be said about "free will" and neural determinism, and in how far our freedom to chose depends on earlier stimuli that have formed our percpetion of ourselves and the world. But it is late over here (or early...), and I just remind of this and tell you that it is by far not that simple as you try to make it appear. And no, I did not say that movie preferences are completely based on commercials. I hinted at that there is more reason than just commercials why people prefer violent, weapon-heavy action movies - resulting in more of that kind of movies and thus: according commercials. Which means I said something quite different. Well, full stop here. It's 5:30. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.