Dowly, Stug!

[Freiwillige]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

Erm, 15,000 StuGs? I don't think you'll get to that number even if you count the StuG IV. The number of StuG IIIs produced was around 9,500, not counting variants like the StuH 42.

Again, you got me

I was quoting a show called tanks I just watched which is also where I got the 3 to 1 ratio. It stated that about 15,000 stugs of all types were produced. But some fact checking including the Stug IV and StuH 42 still only puts the total to 12,500. I wonder if converted Panzer 3's made up the rest?

[Freiwillige]

As for how it got into a bog, One theory is that as the Germans ran low on fuel or ammo or parts they would just push these thing into a bog so that the soviets couldn't claim them and use them against the retreating German's.

The Soviets and the Germans would often use captured enemy vehicles.

Its also interesting that tracks with the extended length on them, never seen that before, was that a Northern front modification?

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

As for how it got into a bog, One theory is that as the Germans ran low on fuel or ammo or parts they would just push these thing into a bog so that the soviets couldn't claim them and use them against the retreating German's.

The Soviets and the Germans would often use captured enemy vehicles.

Its also interesting that tracks with the extended length on them, never seen that before, was that a Northern front modification?

As far as I know, those are winter tracks (Winterketten), they were extended tracks introduced in late 1942 to help navigate the snow on the Eastern Front.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

Indeed.

Oh, do note that some Assault Guns, such as the KV-2 and the Churchill AVRE, did have turrets. Though they still don't really count as tanks because of their low velocity guns and specialized design.

Oh, I didn't know the KV2 was also considered an assault gun. Interesting is that the Germans put captured KV 2's into tank, not arty units.

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

As for how it got into a bog, One theory is that as the Germans ran low on fuel or ammo or parts they would just push these thing into a bog so that the soviets couldn't claim them and use them against the retreating German's.

Found some stuff:

Here are some pictures of the retrieval:
http://www.detektorweb.cz/index.4me?...2988&mm=1&vd=1
According to this website (and google translate), the Stug was captured near Demyansk and the (gun) crew was still inside - so it looks like it was buried unintentionally...
Also the site says that it was sold for a million $

According to this site http://legion-afv.narod.ru/StuG-40_Saratov.html the Stug was found near Pskov, which is further to the West. It also says, that it is today in the museum of Saratov, in the south of Russia.
Check out especially the pictures 6 and 11 on this site, you'll see that they made a 21 out of the 20 painted on it. You can see the same in Oberon's second picture.

[Freiwillige]

Why didn't they do something to preserve it better? The rust looks horrid. It did not have that when pulled from the bog.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Penguin

and the (gun) crew was still inside - so it looks like it was buried unintentionally...

How can that be explained? What can we speculate happened there?

you'll see that they made a 21 out of the 20 painted on it.

What is the significance behind that?
Or the reasoning?

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Oberon

There was a German captured T-34 complete with markings pulled out of a lake/bog the other year.

You're talking about this:
http://www.mil.hiiumaa.ee/2000_09_14_kurtna_T-34-36/

And here is a link to the restoration of the T-34, video 4 shows them starting up the diesel engine!
http://www.diving.ee/articles/art035.html

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

How can that be explained? What can we speculate happened there?

well there has been a massive encirclement battle near Demyansk from the beginning of '42 untill march '43. So a speculation is that the swamp began to defrost, together with a hasty retreat (= no reconaissance) this could have been a fatal accident.

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

What is the significance behind that?
Or the reasoning?

I really can't say. For a forgery attempt it is much too obvious that the 20 was painted over.
However something really smells fishy about this whole thing.
My guess is that the Stug was recovered by graverobbers. This explains why we have neither an exact location nor names of the dead. Selling stuff from fallen soldiers is a massive business, especially in the East. These people plunder the dead and leave the human remains lieing there. Without the tags, which they also steal, an identification of the fallen will be nearly impossible - if they are found again...

The claim that it was sold for $1000000 also points into this direction, if it was recovered by the authorities, the Stug would belong to the state - and the remains of the dead would be buried.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Penguin

I really can't say. For a forgery attempt it is much too obvious that the 20 was painted over.
However something really smells fishy about this whole thing.
My guess is that the Stug was recovered by graverobbers. This explains why we have neither an exact location nor names of the dead. Selling stuff from fallen soldiers is a massive business, especially in the East. These people plunder the dead and leave the human remains lieing there. Without the tags, which they also steal, an identification of the fallen will be nearly impossible - if they are found again...

The claim that it was sold for $1000000 also points into this direction, if it was recovered by the authorities, the Stug would belong to the state - and the remains of the dead would be buried.

May the robbers, if it was indeed, burn in hell.
Or whoever it was, that did not treat the dead with respect.
Sad, very sad to see that the dead found inside will be nameless forever, and their families will die wondering.

[Penguin]

To be fair, there are also some very honourable people in Russia who search battlefields and work together with organisations who bury the dead (e.g. Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge) - sadly they seem to be the minority.
Nobody gives a damn if people take equipment, but personal items and human remains should be respected. Every dead body, from all sides of this gigantic blodshed, deserves a place to rest and the relatives deserve a clearification of the fate.

[Feuer Frei!]

Apparently the Germans repainted some of their Equipment and that included renumbering as well.
So the renumbering on that found StuG may be authentic.
All the internal equipment and some parts were stolen.
Kubinka tank museum planned to buy it, but the local administration wanted 8000 USD for the StuG and Kubinka didn't have that kind of money.
I wasn't implying ofc that there are not honorable people in Russia, or for that matter anywhere else in the world that do this kind of retrieval work.
I was talking about this particular case.
Still a shameful act. They know who they are, and probably have done this many a time, found bodies and done the same. Hardened crims really.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

Apparently the Germans repainted some of their Equipment and that included renumbering as well.
So the renumbering on that found StuG may be authentic.
All the internal equipment and some parts were stolen.
Kubinka tank museum planned to buy it, but the local administration wanted 8000 USD for the StuG and Kubinka didn't have that kind of money.

Ah, interesting, 8000 sounds a lot more realistic than the 1000000 the other source stated. Do you also have infos if it is true that the Stug is now in Saratov?

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

I wasn't implying ofc that there are not honorable people in Russia, or for that matter anywhere else in the world that do this kind of retrieval work.
I was talking about this particular case.
Still a shameful act.

No mate, you didn't sound so - I wanted to clearify my post, I thought it sounded like I would lump together all battlefield explorers in Russia.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Ah, interesting, 8000 sounds a lot more realistic than the 1000000 the other source stated. Do you also have infos if it is true that the Stug is now in Saratov?

Apparently it is yes.
I'll try to find confirmation of that.

No mate, you didn't sound so - I wanted to clearify my post, I thought it sounded like I would lump together all battlefield explorers in Russia.

Penguin, this is really interesting, history of this StuG, and what possibly happened:

Early this year the wreck was pointed by 91 yo eye-witness. He claimed in 1945 two StuG's were trying to cross the river. One succeded, the other drowned. Two crewmans died and were found in the river when the spring came. He also said that the rest of the crew came to his home and asked for some water and food - they weren't aggresive. They were completly wet and freezing. Few hours later they were captured by the Russians and shot. Probably beacuse of the black uniforms and sculls on the collars they were taken as SS guys by mistake. They are burried in the near village.

The other story is that the entire crew drowned in the wreck - two were found in the spring (this is the fact), others are probably still there...

We will see which one is true when the hull will be raised from the mud.

According to the uniforms Russians said that they fought on Krim (they had "Krimschilds").

First atempt to pull it had taken place in early 50' - and it failed. During this one polish and russian soldiers were using two T34s and a railroad crane and later were trying to blow it up - probably (and luckilly) they failed to do so.

First attempt nowadays was in August, 29th. It failed too and the search team found only a wheel (some of them were kept on the hull) and some minor parts.

Second try began Septembrer, 28th. Now they had better and more pumps to get rid of water and the entire action had a better plan and organisation.
They succesfully pulled out damaged turret and the gun - it was partially separated from the hull because of the action taken in 50'.
The wreck has tactical number 981. Some guy discovered that probably it belonged to the Brandenburg division, 9th or 10th company from capt. Spielvogel's 3 rd battalion. On Jan 45 they recieved StuG's and were sent back more or less that way to the west.

When the entire StuG will be recovered it will be transferred to military museum in Poznan and its curator, cpt. Ogrodniczuk and his men will try to restore it and maybe repair to running condition. He is a really good mechanic and I mean it - he successfuly repaired Iosif Stalin 2 tank back to running condition.

Hope this short note will give you a better view And please forgive me all grammar mistakes.

That was a post from a member over at this site:
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=180498

Fascinating read that, it makes a lot of sense, and the poster is from Poland, by the sounds of it this guy had some serious inside info, or he was there!
The 2 story 'what-ifs' make a lot of sense don't they?

Edit:
More digging around now i find this:

The Stug was not abandoned but turned upside down in the swamp after breaking ice during the retreat! Possibly a few crew members escaped before it filled with water, The MP40 was found inside along with an Mg42, ammo and grenades

Matches with the stories above, about the drowning, and a few escaping.

Here are some wonderful pictures of it:
http://dishmodels.ru/wshow.htm?np=2&p=1022

[Penguin]

@ Feuer frei: great pictures of the Stug you found there!

The Stug in Poland seems to be a different one and a type IV, here are some pics of the recovery: http://www.odkrywca.pl/galerie.php?nazwa=348
The condition is far worse, as it wasn't sealed airtight like the one conserved in the bog.

According to this forum: http://militaria-archiv.com/archive/...hp/t-8290.html (german) our STug III was found near Velikiye Luki - this is much closer to Pskov from the above sources. This would also put the possible timeframe again to spring '43. 1945 it was already game over in this area.
Here is a picture which allegedly shows our very same "bog Stug" in operation, found on this site: http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...ad.php?t=24153