Japanese Tsunami

[ASWnut101]

Sorry my mistake. It's a BWR like the rest. Pretty much the same deal applies with #1 then.

[CCIP]

Phew, I didn't know this until today, but one of my Japanese friends in colleagues was in actually Sendai when this hit She just got out of the city and reported that she can finally sleep for the first time in 3 days. That's a relief to be sure! A couple of other Japanese acquaintances of mine are helping out or have family members helping out, some with the direct business of looking through the rubble for survivors and bodies. That's tough - keep people like that in your thoughts please! For all the talk of disaster, you can't forget the rescue workers, medical workers, and also those power plant workers that are probably working far beyond their limits now.

My prediction earlier is sadly coming true - seems like everyone agrees that the death toll will be over 10,000, possibly greatly over 10,000.

[ASWnut101]

Looks like they're having troubles at Fukushima Plant 2 (Fukushima Daini). The "pressure suppression function" on the four reactors has been lost. No manual pressure release has taken place yet. An evacuation order for a ten kilometer radius from the plant has been issued.

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp...1031311-e.html

[RickC Sniper]

I am of the opinion that people are just plain stupid. Nuclear plants can be made and run safely, but you have to trust that the contractors built the plant without any cost-saving shortcuts and that the managers of the plant actually have enough brains to run the plant safely.
3 mile and Chernobyl were functional plants with enough safeguards in place to run safely but we are forced to trust plant managers to run them safely. It also requires complete honesty when a problem occurs so proper steps can be taken, or the safeguards are useless.
============
By design, the Chernobyl plant did not even have a containment building...like the building that exploded in Japan.

After the 3 Mile Island near disaster, they did add a partial containment building, but it's very design required large cranes to be used above the core, so a full containment building would have gotten in the way.

This, from a wiki source:
Initially, the RBMK design focused solely on accident prevention and mitigation, not on containment of severe accidents. However, since the Three Mile Island accident, RBMK design also includes a partial containment structure (not a full containment building) for dealing with emergencies. The pipes underneath the reactor are sealed inside leak-tight boxes containing a large amount of water. If these pipes leak or burst, the radioactive material is trapped by the water inside these boxes. However, RBMK reactors were designed to allow fuel rods to be changed without shutting down (as in the pressurized heavy water CANDU reactor), both for refueling and for plutonium production (for nuclear weapons). This required large cranes above the core. As the RBMK reactor is very tall (about 7 metres), the cost and difficulty of building a heavy containment structure prevented building of additional emergency containment structure for pipes on top of the reactor. In the Chernobyl accident, the pressure rose to levels high enough to blow the top off the reactor, breaking open these pipes in the process.
End Quote

The Chernobyl plants were known to be extremely unstable when running at low power settings, yet they decided to do an experiment to see how long the plant's turbines' inertia could produce power if the main electrical supply was cut. They deactivated automatic shutdown mechanisms to carry out the experiment. During the experiment the coolant system failed and that doomed the plant.

Poor design, yes, but human error or rather decisions caused the disaster at Chernobyl.

http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...ctors-are-safe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBMK#Containment

[RickC Sniper]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

Looks like they're having troubles at Fukushima Plant 2 (Fukushima Daini). The "pressure suppression function" on the four reactors has been lost. No manual pressure release has taken place yet. An evacuation order for a ten kilometer radius from the plant has been issued.

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp...1031311-e.html

At least information is free-flowing. I have hope they will avert a major disaster in Japan regarding these plants. For some reason I have more faith in the Japanese to deal with this than I do of Russia or the USA.

[CCIP]

Yeah, I agree that despite how serious things may be with the reactors, this panic-mongering some people are getting into over nuclear power is stupid and short-sighted. Unless something goes really, really wrong from this point on, I honestly see the situation with the reactors as proving the safety and reliability of their design under extreme circumstances, not vice versa... So far the Japanese have done a great job under overwhelming circumstances. The only thing that is stacking up against the reactors and their operators so far is the PR, in everything else I suspect they deserve high marks at the moment.

[RickC Sniper]

@CCIP..... well said.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Yeah, I agree that despite how serious things may be with the reactors, this panic-mongering some people are getting into over nuclear power is stupid and short-sighted. Unless something goes really, really wrong from this point on, I honestly see the situation with the reactors as proving the safety and reliability of their design under extreme circumstances, not vice versa...

Welcome in our dimension, alien. Where do you come from, and what makes existence such a perfect state over there?

Cooling systems in at least four different sites along the coast, are currently reported to be critical or already having collapsed. And you call that "fear mongering...?

When Tchernobyl went up, Germany received varying doses of radioactivity, depending on the region. Worst it was in Bavaria, I seem to recall, and youstill can measure it - and it will stay that way for decades to come. In the first years, nothing seemed to have effected by it. But today, a quarter of a century later, we know that we have a statistically abnormal accumulation of deformaties in population groups having been exposed to this "low-level" radiation, and a statistically signficant raise in child mortality. Mind you - I'm talking about Germany, not Chernobyl and Russia.

We received just a small fraction of those doses Xabba's map is pointing out.

Some people will stay uncritical of nuclear technology as long as they do not grow a third arm. On the other ahnd, see it positive. If so far 4 (!) instabile powerplants with critical or already molten cores and cooling systems critical or already having failed, will not make nervous, than nothing ever will.

[Oberon]

1. 2103: Japan's Earthquake Research Committee estimates Friday's devastating earthquake forced the tectonic plate on which Japan sits to spring eastward by about 20m (66 feet), says NHK. The researchers also say the quake caused some areas, from Iwate to Fukushima prefectures, to sink up to about 75cm.

There's a thought to boggle the mind, the whole of Japan and its surrounding area moved east by twenty meters.

[Highbury]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/ja...eforeafter.htm

Just.. wow

[XabbaRus]

And Skybird you have just fallen straight into the scaremongering category.

There has been a partial meltdown in reactor 1, possibly in reactor 3.

The fact that they are still managing to pump in water and that there hasn't been anything worse than the first explosion I think shows how even in extreme circumstances you can manage them so they don't pose further danger.

As for the effects of radioactive fallout there is still debate on going about how much Chernobyl is responsible for these statistical anomalies in the fallout zone, especially those further down the fallout zone.

[Schöneboom]

Just when I thought I had some grasp of the enormity of the disaster, I saw these photos:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...survivors.html

The Japanese half of my family are safe and sound, for now. A lot of clean-up to do, but at least they still have homes.

As for the Fukushima crisis, conflicting reports are to be expected. The country is in ruins; entire villages wiped out; millions are without power, food or water; transportation system is a shambles... the authorities will say whatever they must to forestall a mass panic. I don't expect to learn the whole truth about the radiation released for quite some time.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Welcome in our dimension, alien. Where do you come from, and what makes existence such a perfect state over there?

Cooling systems in at least four different sites along the coast, are currently reported to be critical or already having collapsed. And you call that "fear mongering...?

When Tchernobyl went up, Germany received varying doses of radioactivity, depending on the region. Worst it was in Bavaria, I seem to recall, and youstill can measure it - and it will stay that way for decades to come. In the first years, nothing seemed to have effected by it. But today, a quarter of a century later, we know that we have a statistically abnormal accumulation of deformaties in population groups having been exposed to this "low-level" radiation, and a statistically signficant raise in child mortality. Mind you - I'm talking about Germany, not Chernobyl and Russia.

Here's a factoid for you before you question my planetary origins any further: I was one of the children who received a radioactive dose from the Chernobyl disaster, and a stronger one than most in Germany. I've developed a couple of chronic health problems as a result, one that is bothering me even as we speak. That's a medical fact for you. Closer to the disaster, several relatives and family friends participated in the "liquidation" of Chernobyl, with some of them paying a terrible, terrible price, physically and psychologically. It cost some their lives in the end. I am WELL aware of the costs of radioactive disasters, sir.

This doesn't mean that, GIVEN WHAT WE KNOW SO FAR, I have to beat the drum of "nuclear power fails! TERRIBLE IDEA! TERRIBLE RESPONSE! DOWN WITH NUC! SAVE THE PLANET! SAVE THE CHILDREN!" in an incident where there's no evidence of a serious leak and all the evidence of an extraordinary containment effort and appropriate measures to protect the population. I didn't suggest that things are in a perfect state, far from. But as I said, in the circumstances of the terrible disaster taking place now, so far I can only praise both the technology and the response. This is no Chernobyl. And if you want to wave the "affected children" card to garner some sort of pathos, as a child affected by Chernobyl I am offended by your comparison of this incident to Chernobyl. This comparison is inappropriate and equally unfair to victims of Chernobyl and those who are suffering from the ongoing incidents.

Facts may emerge that can change my perspective. But in the face of what I can gather now, I am prepared to be sympathetic to those who are working hard on this situation right now - they have my support. So far the most important aspects of safety have not been breached, and that doesn't deserve condemnation or discredit.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Schöneboom

Just when I thought I had some grasp of the enormity of the disaster, I saw these photos:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...survivors.html

The Japanese half of my family are safe and sound, for now. A lot of clean-up to do, but at least they still have homes.

As for the Fukushima crisis, conflicting reports are to be expected. The country is in ruins; entire villages wiped out; millions are without power, food or water; transportation system is a shambles... the authorities will say whatever they must to forestall a mass panic. I don't expect to learn the whole truth about the radiation released for quite some time.

Dammit...I just want to get on a plane and go there to help move stuff around. I'm no paramedic, soldier or anything special, I just want to help move stuff, I can left heavy stuff.
I'd probably just get in the way though....

Frustrating though...

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Dammit...I just want to get on a plane and go there to help move stuff around. I'm no paramedic, soldier or anything special, I just want to help move stuff, I can left heavy stuff.
I'd probably just get in the way though....

Frustrating though...

I feel the same way. Wish I could do something.

To all, let's not turn this thread into an arguement, this is a national catastrophe.